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Thread: 6 Million Americans Without a Voice

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    Re: 6 Million Americans Without a Voice

    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    Excuse me for stepping in, but why is the loss of voting also not part of the debt owed to society? Seems to me, people determined the debt owed to society was not only the fine and incarceration part, but also the voting rights part. Why are you trying to exclude that from the "debt owed" portion?
    Since voting is the single fundamental right in a democracy, I'd say the burden on you is to justify why it should be included.
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
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    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: 6 Million Americans Without a Voice

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/12/op...f=opinion&_r=0

    It's about goddamn time that such laws that fly hilariously in the face of the spirit of the constitution are confronted at the higher levels of government. While I doubt there's currently any political momentum to create Federal laws that overturn state disenfranchisement laws, maybe this will help start the public dialogue needed to do so. Voter disenfranchisement laws are are an utter travesty.
    Interesting that you would lead with the Spirit of the Constitution, given that the Constitution pretty explicitly left this to State governments, and intended to.

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    Re: 6 Million Americans Without a Voice

    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    Excuse me for stepping in, but why is the loss of voting also not part of the debt owed to society? Seems to me, people determined the debt owed to society was not only the fine and incarceration part, but also the voting rights part. Why are you trying to exclude that from the "debt owed" portion?
    Because calling it a "debt" is misleading if you can never repay it. It also carries with it the assumption that every crime is deserving of that debt. It's a zero-sum position that is no different than "why shouldn't all felons be imprisoned for life?"

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    Re: 6 Million Americans Without a Voice

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    Since voting is the single fundamental right in a democracy, I'd say the burden on you is to justify why it should be included.
    1. We do not - thank God - live in a Democracy. We live in a Representative Republic.

    2. The ability to exercise the franchise is not the single fundamental right. If you were going to argue for one, that one would probably be self-defense, or speech. You do not have a right to vote. You have a right not to have the vote taken from you for a variety of explicitly and narrowly defined reasons.

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    Re: 6 Million Americans Without a Voice

    Does anyone think that Holder isn't doing this because felons would be an overwhelming Democrat constituency?

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    Re: 6 Million Americans Without a Voice

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    Since voting is the single fundamental right in a democracy, I'd say the burden on you is to justify why it should be included.
    Well good for you. However, I have no such burden. I haven't voted on the issue, nor even voiced an opinion on the issue.

    My only comment was in reference to the false statement that once a person has served their time, and/or paid their fines, their debt to society is complete. Obsiously it isn't. The loss of voting rights is part of that debt owed to society.

    One could argue that's too big a "fine", but to claim the debt owed is has been paid in full is clearly wrong.

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    Re: 6 Million Americans Without a Voice

    Quote Originally Posted by Perotista View Post
    Common Types of Felonies
    The most common types of felonies are assault/battery involving actual or intended serious bodily harm, all degrees of murder, kidnapping, serious drug crimes, racketeering, conspiracy and embezzlement of large sums of money.

    So these are the people that holder is fighting to allow to vote. Hmm, I think this speaks volumns about Holder and his agenda. He doesn't seem to be inclined about the normal, average American much does he?
    Philosophically, my view is that once prison is over, a citizen should regain full citizenry, right to own a gun, right to vote, and more often than not have their records sealed so they can attempt to gain normal employment. While a lot of people will disagree, I see nothing less as just.

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    Re: 6 Million Americans Without a Voice

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    1. We do not - thank God - live in a Democracy. We live in a Representative Republic.

    2. The ability to exercise the franchise is not the single fundamental right. If you were going to argue for one, that one would probably be self-defense, or speech. You do not have a right to vote. You have a right not to have the vote taken from you for a variety of explicitly and narrowly defined reasons.
    Incorrect. The 15th amendment specifically states that the "right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any state on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude."

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    Re: 6 Million Americans Without a Voice

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Does anyone think that Holder isn't doing this because felons would be an overwhelming Democrat constituency?
    Two can play that game. Does anyone think that conservatives aren't coming to the defense of voter disenfranchisement because of their belief that it ultimately helps the Republican party?

    Or would you like to stick to the defensibility of the laws themselves?

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    Re: 6 Million Americans Without a Voice

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    Incorrect. The 15th amendment specifically states that the "right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any state on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude."
    Leaves open the opportunity to abridge the right to vote for other reasons. "Race, color and previous condition of servitude does not cover conviction of a felony." And you and I have already been through Section 2, 14th. One just can't pretend that doesn't exist.

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