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Thread: Gang of NYPD cops beating up on 84 year-old man for jaywalking [W:129]

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    re: Gang of NYPD cops beating up on 84 year-old man for jaywalking [W:129]

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    4 staples is nothing. That is the exact amount my son got when he was 2 years old for the gash on his head from falling onto our windowsill.

    Since you like to play semantics, I want evidence of a beating. A single gash that we know was caused by impact with the ground (whether caused by him falling or being pushed is the only thing in question here) is not evidence of a beating as you claim. There are no bruises on that man, not even a split lip, bloody nose, or black eye. No other cuts at all. If you care going to claim beating, then actually show evidence of a beating, not a fall resulting in a single gash to the head, something a 2 year old gets when they are still wobbly on their feet.
    Four staples to the head for the gashes are nothing to you or your son because both of you not octagenarian. Or are you? Head concussion for the elderly can send them into brain trauma and even death as a result.


    You're been playing not just semantic from the beginning but also making up stuffs to villify the elderly victim in defense of the NYPD police action.


    Why aren't you paying attention when I had in the beginning explained to you that beating does not necessarily means cops using their fists or batons to beat a person blue and black, split lip, bloody nose and all that. Beating can also be accomplished by bringing your head forcefully against a hard surface like the brick wall or concrete pavement. It's called pushing. The result is the same. That's how the old man got open wound injuries requiring four staples.


    I see you avoided my previous logical explanation of why the picture and injuries showed the old man was pushed to the ground in consistence with what the old man claimed and as had been reported widely by news media of the "beating" and not a single person came forward and dispute that even though there were several reporters at the scene on that day to document an earlier accident. Well, let me put them to you against and expound it further:


    1. According to a witness, Ian King, the police stood Mr. Kang Wong against the wall.


    2. So, how the hell could Mr. Wong fell and busted the back of his head when he was standing against the wall with the officer in front of him within arms' length?


    3. If he had fallen why wasn't the heavy set police officer able to catch hold or him, failing which at least be able to break his fall without suffering any injury?


    4. If all else failed and Mr. Wong fell to the ground, why was the officer calling for backups instead of just calling the ambulance and then attended to him to make sure he did not suffer broken bones or closed head brain trauma given he had obvious sign of bleeding on his head.


    5. And why was Mr. Wong handcuffed while still on the floor if he had fallen? Wasn't that clear that the intent of the officers was to arrest the old man? Or you still think the fall just came handy -- a lucky conincidence?


    6. Why stood a handcuffed elderly man who had just fallen to risk dislocating a posssible fracture that might sever a major artery which could be fatal?


    The scenerio we have, therefore, is more consistent of usual police modus operandi of tackling a person to the ground to execute an arrest than helping and attending to a fallen old man with bloody head injury. Like I said, the elderly man didn't just fall while against the wall with officer close by in front but was pushed down, as the victim said, by the cops without regards to his well being as we saw in the picture and the logical scenario. And if it's not a fall then the only way he would have gotten those head injuries was by being pushed to the ground and head pressed down for the handcuff. That's clearly evidence of a beating by cops.


    Now take a look at some more pictures showing the bloodied Mr. Wong on the ground already handcuffed for the arrest:

    hqdefault.jpg


    Kang-Wong-jaywalking.jpg

    larger.jpg

    extralarge-1.jpg

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    re: Gang of NYPD cops beating up on 84 year-old man for jaywalking [W:129]

    Quote Originally Posted by ric27 View Post
    Go on a case-by-case basis. Don't generalized
    Sorry but it be a well known and general problem in this area. The Arvin court provides a majority of the funding for the city of Arvin. The Arvin is situated such that the Grapevine traffic violations are adjudicated there. I will gets some specific allegations and cases later when I have more time.
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    re: Gang of NYPD cops beating up on 84 year-old man for jaywalking [W:129]

    When I clicked "video" I expected to see a gang of officers beating down an elderly man.

    Not what I saw at all.

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    re: Gang of NYPD cops beating up on 84 year-old man for jaywalking [W:129]

    Quote Originally Posted by dolphinocean View Post
    Four staples to the head for the gashes are nothing to you or your son because both of you not octagenarian. Or are you? Head concussion for the elderly can send them into brain trauma and even death as a result.
    A 2 year old busting their head open can cause major issues, including permanent lifelong brain damage. Plus, they generally have less blood to lose than an old guy. Head concussions and brain trauma are just as possible for a 2 year old as they are for an octogenarian, especially since 2 year olds can still have soft spots in their skulls.


    Quote Originally Posted by dolphinocean View Post
    1. According to a witness, Ian King, the police stood Mr. Kang Wong against the wall.


    2. So, how the hell could Mr. Wong fell and busted the back of his head when he was standing against the wall with the officer in front of him within arms' length?


    3. If he had fallen why wasn't the heavy set police officer able to catch hold or him, failing which at least be able to break his fall without suffering any injury?


    4. If all else failed and Mr. Wong fell to the ground, why was the officer calling for backups instead of just calling the ambulance and then attended to him to make sure he did not suffer broken bones or closed head brain trauma given he had obvious sign of bleeding on his head.


    5. And why was Mr. Wong handcuffed while still on the floor if he had fallen? Wasn't that clear that the intent of the officers was to arrest the old man? Or you still think the fall just came handy -- a lucky conincidence?


    6. Why stood a handcuffed elderly man who had just fallen to risk dislocating a posssible fracture that might sever a major artery which could be fatal?
    Head injuries bleed a lot. They simply do. They also stop bleeding fairly quickly (my son was no longer bleeding by the time we got him to the emergency room 25, 30 min after it happened. Really it had stopped before we got him to the car. A simple gash to the head does not require an ambulance.

    They arresting him for disorderly conduct (attempting to grab his ID from the officer, possibly pushing the officer). They weren't arresting him for jaywalking. There is also no evidence that he was tackled to the ground.

    And police make mistakes too. Just because they didn't catch him, doesn't mean he didn't fall.

    Quote Originally Posted by dolphinocean View Post
    The scenerio we have, therefore, is more consistent of usual police modus operandi of tackling a person to the ground to execute an arrest than helping and attending to a fallen old man with bloody head injury. Like I said, the elderly man didn't just fall while against the wall with officer close by in front but was pushed down, as the victim said, by the cops without regards to his well being as we saw in the picture and the logical scenario. And if it's not a fall then the only way he would have gotten those head injuries was by being pushed to the ground and head pressed down for the handcuff. That's clearly evidence of a beating by cops.
    No, you want the gash to be evidence of the beating, when in fact it isn't. You cannot prove that he didn't just fall. You have no evidence to support this. He was fighting the police officers. It is quite easy to fall when you are fighting with the police.

    Quote Originally Posted by dolphinocean View Post
    Now take a look at some more pictures showing the bloodied Mr. Wong on the ground already handcuffed for the arrest:
    Those pics again, support me. No bruises on the man. The only blood can be traced to the one head wound. His clothes do not show signs of dirt or muss associated with being "wrestled" on the ground.

    So far, you have shown a preconceived bias against the police in every part of this. Not once have you even accepted the possibility that this man could have been responsible for what he went through or even admitted that the police may not have "beat" this man or even been responsible for his injury. I have stated several times, that given more evidence, it is possible the police officers were responsible for the injury, but that ultimately, without more information, it appears that the situation was mainly caused because of the man himself, jaywalking, then not being able to be patient enough to wait for a ticket which is bound to take longer with a communication barrier, and then making an assumption about the intentions of an officer, escalating the incident further.
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    re: Gang of NYPD cops beating up on 84 year-old man for jaywalking [W:129]

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    See above post.
    Two year-old toddler falls all the time. That's how they learn to walk and run. They don't bust their head open that causes major lifelong brain damage for a simple fall. That's because toddlers are short in height and small in body mass as compared to octogenarian adult. Their bones are pliable and the end-plate cartilage still has not ossified whereas the bones of octagenarians are more fragile and usually at that age they suffer from osteoporosis. Hip fracture or femur fracture is the most common occurence in elderly as a result of fall.


    Therefore your appeal to hyperbole is futile.


    Sure, head injuries bleed a lot but four gashes that need stapling? It's not just a minor cut. Also, the following was reported in the media:


    Manhattan man, 84, ticketed for jaywalking to file $5 million lawsuit against city - NY Daily News

    The 84-year-old Manhattan man left bruised, bloodied and humiliated by NYPD cops during a jaywalking ticket blitz....


    His head, arm and ribs still sore from the violent confrontation with cops

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    re: Gang of NYPD cops beating up on 84 year-old man for jaywalking [W:129]

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    See post #74 above.
    You state the old man "attempting to grab his ID from the officer" as though it was fact. I've read more than a dozen news articles and not once had I came across such report. You have the tendency to make up stuffs against this old man and despite my calling you out on this several times, you continues to do so without reservation. That right there goes to show you are willing to engaging in dishonest debate knowingly.


    Yes, police make mistakes and didn't catch him despite the old man's standing against the wall and within arms' length of the officer but I had already allowed for such in my two previous posts and you have yet to tell me why he was handcuffed while sustaining a fall.


    Now, once again, which makes more sense:


    A. The old man standing against the wall just fell within arm's length of officer and officer just handcuffed a fallen old man still on the ground after a fall.


    OR


    B. The police called for backup and when backup arrived the old man was pushed to the wall and then down to the ground to be subdued and handcuffed.


    A doesn't make much sense, does it?

    For one, the old man was standing against the wall and the officer was in front of him within arm's length. It not only makes no sense but also there is no report in the news media of a single witness stating that the old man fell. Yet, despite it's absence of witness to that and the scenario making no sense you still steadfast insist that the old man fell.


    Whereas B is consistent with the following points:


    1. this is consistent with police take down tactics that results in a subject being subdued on the ground and handcuffed:





    2. it is consistent with the news report of the old man's encounter with the police:

    Manhattan man, 84, ticketed for jaywalking to file $5 million lawsuit against city - NY Daily News


    Several officers raced over and grabbed Wong, pushing him against the wall of a building. Wong said he was pushed to the ground and struck his head, blacking out. When he regained consciousness, blood was streaming down his face and his hands were cuffed behind his back.


    3. supported by a witness' account:

    Cops in NYC Bloody Up An 84 Year Old Man Over Jaywalking : TheSource


    “The guy didn’t seem to speak English. The cop walked him over to the Citibank. [The officer] stood him up against the wall and was trying to write him a ticket. The man didn’t seem to understand, and he started walking away. The cop tried to pull him back, and that’s when he began to struggle with the cop. As soon as he pushed the cop, it was like cops started running in from everywhere.”

    4. the independent media photos of Mr. Kang Wong on the ground and already handcuffed supported his account in #2.


    Notice that the witness Ian King said the old man struggled with the cop before pushing him as the backup cops started running in from everywhere and not that the old man fell and then the backup cops started running in from everywhere.

    So, the old man was still standing until the backup cops arrived and only then he was pushed to the floor which is consistent with what the old man said in #2 above.


    So, if we have ruled out the falling scenario very unlikely as expounded above, the only way the old can sustain such head injuries to the back of his head is:


    1. he banged his head against the wall himself and lied about it. Unlikely given it was in busy public street intersection - many witnesses.


    2. he fell back and hit his head on the concrete pavement but that's not possible for abovementioned reasons and also he was against the wall.


    3. he lay down on the concrete himself and banged his head against the concrete pavement. Unlikely given it was in busy street intersection - many witnesses.


    Not every beating situation has a video or photo documentation. For instance, in domestic abuse cases, do you need to see a video of a man beating his woman in progress in order to recognize that the woman was beaten based on her injury and her account?


    If the man pushed the woman against the wall forcefully enough just once to cause the back of the head to sustain a gashing open wound injury, do we then not consider that as beating? Or do we need also to see bruises on the woman's body, black eyes, split lip and what nots in order to call it beating?


    Just like in cases of domestic violence where statistically men are usually the perpetrators of the violence and therefore women are assumed victims unless shown otherwise so also the documented police abuse and violence against the citizenry. NYPD cops are notorious for abuse of power.


    Cops in NYC Bloody Up An 84 Year Old Man Over Jaywalking : TheSource


    Mr. Kang Wong had no run-in with the law and had been a hardworking and productive citizen since he was a young man. So, on what ground are you doubting his integrity and inventing stuffs to vilify him?
    Last edited by dolphinocean; 01-31-14 at 10:17 PM.

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    re: Gang of NYPD cops beating up on 84 year-old man for jaywalking [W:129]

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    See above post #74.
    Not just NYPD being abusive, nationwide we are seeing increased abuse of power and militarization of the police. Public apathy and support of such abuse only make things worst as our jurors seemingly are very reluctant to convict them and therefore they get the free pass to abuse more.


    In your previous posts, you stated that we have to follow strictly the jaywalking law and observe where to cross and what to do or not to do according to what the signal light indicates otherwise we deserved to be stopped by the cops and ticketed.


    But, walking is as fundamental as breathing air and taking in food and water in terms of fundamental right and liberty. Nobody can tell us where to walk or when to walk or not to walk unless we posed a danger to others.


    To me, a strict regulation of walking under jaywalking law is fundamentally against the Constitution when liberty is concerned. In most states, pedestrians are not harassed by police for crossing where they find convenient if they observe safety precaution and did not violate the safety of others such as a coming motorists. In most states, pedestrians are cited for jaywalking only when an accident occurred and the pedestrian involved is found to be at fault. To charge the pedestrian for a wrong doing relating to unsafe walking/crossing, there must be a code for the offence, thus the jaywalking law was enacted mainly for that purpose.


    This precinct implemented enforcement of jaywalking law so strictly in very short period time (within 12 hours of that day) and expect people to know what's going on let alone the old man who had been doing what he had been doing before without getting into trouble with the law. And then all of the sudden he was stopped by the police and stood against the wall?


    He didn't even know what's going on and you want to tell him to argue his jaywalking case in court?


    And funny that the goal of the sudden strict enforcement was to “reduce serious injuries and fatalities on our streets to zero… with strong enforcement” but within 12 hours the cops had already put an octogenarian all bloodied to the hospital. I call it bs.


    It's just an convenient excuse for squeezing more revenue from the people of NY and at the same time to flex their dictatorian muscles:

    Bill de Blasio Crackdown on Jaywalking Leads to Beating of 84-Year-Old Man | FrontPage Magazine


    New York City does not ticket or arrest jaywalkers under normal circumstances. Giuliani’s administration briefly tried it and gave up. Even Bloomberg, who criminalized salt and soda, left jaywalking alone.


    The cops on the barricades understand the futility of ticketing pedestrians for jaywalking. “This is just taking hard-earned money from people who can’t afford it,” an officer told the Times during Giuliani’s jaywalking crackdown of 1998. Another adds, “I just don’t think that walking across the street is a crime, and I wouldn’t feel comfortable getting down on people for doing it.” <snip>


    New York is a pedestrian city and jaywalking is for places like Los Angeles that are automobile cities.


    I don't know from what kind of country you had transplanted from, but let me tell you, absolute power, when tolerated and freely given, corrupts. Those who abuse power will test your patient and your level of apathy. When those who abuse power is given an inch they want a foot and soon you will be consumed once you're conditioned into the apathy mode and by then it's already too late. Nothing is more fundamental than your right and liberty to walk wherever you want and whenever you want as long as you're not violating the rights of others and putting their lives at risk.


    New York is more and more becoming like a police state, thanks to people like you who question the injured victim and not the action of the cops. You allow the police state to tell you where to walk, when to walk and what not to do or do and pretty soon you might find yourself like sheep herded into the trains and headed to the gas chamber while thinking you're going to get a nice shower and clean clothes before your dinner.

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    re: Gang of NYPD cops beating up on 84 year-old man for jaywalking [W:129]

    Quote Originally Posted by dolphinocean View Post
    Not just NYPD being abusive, nationwide we are seeing increased abuse of power and militarization of the police. Public apathy and support of such abuse only make things worst as our jurors seemingly are very reluctant to convict them and therefore they get the free pass to abuse more.


    Wow....just wow, man

    Your continued hate-filled diatribe against law enforcement is really getting old

    Points to clarify

    1 Jaywalking is a civil infraction but also disorderly conduct can also be cited when *said* pedestrian impedes vehicular traffic (misdemeanor crime)

    2 Obstructing, the officer *also a misdemeanor crime* and finally, the old man shoving/pushing a police officer is I believe a class C felony.

    The bottom line is.. any subject old/young/male/female who shoves/pushes a cop should not expect a shove in return.

    The law is crystal clear, you can’t shove/push a police officer

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    re: Gang of NYPD cops beating up on 84 year-old man for jaywalking [W:129]

    Quote Originally Posted by ric27 View Post
    See above
    Questioning the conduct of the police officers and calling them to higher standard is hate-filled diatribe against law enforcement? Wow, just wow!

    The government and the police are given the power over the people by the people and therefore they are held to a higher standard. Therefore, the presumption of innocence is given to the people and not the police.

    Where's your evidence the octogenarian was impeding traffic?

    By your totalitarian rule, mentally ill or elderly people who are deaf or suffer focal stroke affecting their understanding of speech will be shoved to the ground and beaten to death if they push back and continue to resist?

    This is no way to treat elderly people no matter the circumstances least of all to ticket them for crossing the street instead of helping them. How many tickets do you expect to ticket them for $250 a pop? 365? 730? How many can you bleed them dry if not beaten them to death?

    Police Allegedly Beat Pearl Pearson For Disobeying Orders He Could Not Hear
    Last edited by dolphinocean; 01-31-14 at 11:19 PM.

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    re: Gang of NYPD cops beating up on 84 year-old man for jaywalking [W:129]

    Quote Originally Posted by ric27 View Post
    Wow....just wow, man

    Your continued hate-filled diatribe against law enforcement is really getting old

    Points to clarify

    1 Jaywalking is a civil infraction but also disorderly conduct can also be cited when *said* pedestrian impedes vehicular traffic (misdemeanor crime)

    2 Obstructing, the officer *also a misdemeanor crime* and finally, the old man shoving/pushing a police officer is I believe a class C felony.

    The bottom line is.. any subject old/young/male/female who shoves/pushes a cop should not expect a shove in return.

    The law is crystal clear, you can’t shove/push a police officer
    Yes, because calling for the police to be held to the same standard as everyone else is clearly a "hate-filled diatribe". Do you honestly believe that the best way to deal with an elderly man who poses no significant threat to you is to put him on the ground and cuff him? Are the police not supposed to "protect and serve"? How is it that you willfully ignore the many well-documented cases of police brutality, and appeal only to the laws protecting the officers in question from legal challenge, as a valid source of authority? Do you believe that the police should be exempt from individual reasoning and common sense?

    Do you really believe that they should respond to any and every act of perceived disobedience or challenge to their authority with fist and club? This is what you are advocating.
    Sic semper evello mortem Tyrannis

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