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Thread: Gang of NYPD cops beating up on 84 year-old man for jaywalking [W:129]

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    re: Gang of NYPD cops beating up on 84 year-old man for jaywalking [W:129]

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    First, I'm not saying if the guy was truly guilty of jaywalking or not. Either is possible. But, that is something fought in court, not fought while in front of the police officer.

    Second, jaywalking laws have been laws for a very long time. They are not new, anywhere in the US, especially not in NYC. What is new is stricter enforcement of those laws, but that is not something that areas have to tell everyone about just because they decide to do it.

    Also, there is no real way to know whether the officer was going to actually give the old man a ticket or just a warning or not for jaywalking since the old man decided to push the officer and try to get back his ID card before the officer was able to even communicate effectively with him. The old man should have figured out that lack of communication between himself and the police officer would mean waiting longer for an interpreter to come so that they could effectively communicate. But instead the guy got impatient and/or scared and attacked the officer (pushing is assault). He brought what happened afterward onto himself. It is dishonest to paint this as him being hurt or arrested over jaywalking. Jaywalking led to his temporary detainment, but assaulting an officer is what led to his arrest (I believe they charged him with "disorderly conduct").

    And I think people wrongly want to label all cops as bad due to just a few. Most cops are absolutely decent. You simply have an obvious bias against police officers, for whatever reason.
    But the old man had no idea he was doing anything wrong and couldn't understand what the officer was saying. Oriental culture is not like the Western, Chinese people are usually subservient to authority. Why this man push the officer, assuming it was true, there must be some reason to it, most likely due to the officer's handling of the matter per the way he and his comrades were willing to put him to the wall and to the ground.

    No, I don't want to label all cops as bad. In fact, it's the reverse. I don't want a small minority of bad cops to smear the good names of good cops and put their lives at risk due to public distaste of what the bad cops project to the public. And supporters of bad cops make things worst.

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    re: Gang of NYPD cops beating up on 84 year-old man for jaywalking [W:129]

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    First of all, the only blood appears to be coming from the side of his head. If he had fallen, as was the "impression" of witnesses, then that could easily cause the wound on his head.

    Second, you do not walk away from a cop when they still have your ID card and are trying to communicate with you. But he himself claims that he didn't walk away but rather tried to get his ID back, before the police officer was done talking to him (likely due to the communication barrier, the officer was trying to get an interpreter to explain to the man either why he shouldn't be crossing the road without the light/signal or why he was being issued a citation).

    If the old man fell and bumped his head, as other witnesses are claiming, then that was not the fault of the officers. It would be the fault of the man for fighting cops who were doing their job. He should not have been so impatient or unwilling to cooperate.
    Other than the Police Commissioner who had the subjective impression the old man fell, can you please find me a source quoting from the witnesses that said the old man fell? Also, where did you get your story about the police was trying to get an interpreter? Where's your source? As far I've read, there was an Oriental eyewitness at the scene. But nothing was mentioned about the police calling out to him for interpretation.

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    re: Gang of NYPD cops beating up on 84 year-old man for jaywalking [W:129]

    Quote Originally Posted by dolphinocean View Post
    But the old man had no idea he was doing anything wrong and couldn't understand what the officer was saying. Oriental culture is not like the Western, Chinese people are usually subservient to authority. Why this man push the officer, assuming it was true, there must be some reason to it, most likely due to the officer's handling of the matter per the way he and his comrades were willing to put him to the wall and to the ground.

    No, I don't want to label all cops as bad. In fact, it's the reverse. I don't a small minority of bad cops to smear the good names of good cops and put their lives at risk due to public distaste of what the bad cops project to the public. And supporters of bad cops make things worst.
    Please. If he lived in this country for 50 years he should know that jaywalking is wrong/illegal. I've only lived for a little over 30 years and I've known for a very long time that jaywalking is illegal, and I lived in areas that had very few crosswalks. I've been to NYC too though and know that there have always been laws against jaywalking there, even if they were rarely enforced.

    As for the communication problem, it was his fault for not either a) learning English in the 50 years he's been here, or b) being patient enough to wait for someone to interpret between him and the police officer. He hasn't lived in Oriental culture for 50 years! It is absolutely not acceptable for him to move here, live here for that long, then claim his culture is different. The officer did not handle the matter wrong. The old man did. He should have had some patience.

    Obviously you are much more willing to believe a single account from an old man than anything else that comes out or actually rationally look at the evidence we have. There is very little evidence of any "beating". The head wound that caused the only blood on the man came from hitting his head on the pavement, which could have been either him being "pushed" there by the officers or him falling, as witnesses claim. But instead of saying it could be either, you automatically assume it had to be the cops pushing the man to the ground with nothing more than his word. And I'm not even really saying the man is lying. He could simply be mistaken.

    I don't support bad cops. But I also do not support automatically assuming cops are bad based off the one person's description of a single incident. I support getting all the info before jumping to the conclusion that cops in a given situation are bad.
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    re: Gang of NYPD cops beating up on 84 year-old man for jaywalking [W:129]

    Quote Originally Posted by dolphinocean View Post
    Other than the Police Commissioner who had the subject impression the old man fell, can you please find me a source quoting from the witnesses that said the old man fell? Also, where did you get your story about the pollice was trying to get an interpreter? Where's your source? As far I've read, there was an Oriental eyewitness at the scene. But nothing was mentioned about the police calling out to him for interpretation.
    You have nothing more than the man's word that he was pushed. And since the police are not generally allowed to comment on such cases, then it's not fair to take the word of someone suing the city for millions of dollars. So either is a possibility.

    I'm going off of an assumption, just as the old man did for assuming the police officer was radioing for backup. An assumption that is more likely than the police officer feeling threatened enough to need "backup" for an old man who, at that time, really hadn't done anything against him. After all, how else was the cop going to communicate with the man who claims he couldn't speak/understand English?
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    re: Gang of NYPD cops beating up on 84 year-old man for jaywalking [W:129]

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Please. If he lived in this country for 50 years he should know that jaywalking is wrong/illegal. I've only lived for a little over 30 years and I've known for a very long time that jaywalking is illegal, and I lived in areas that had very few crosswalks. I've been to NYC too though and know that there have always been laws against jaywalking there, even if they were rarely enforced.

    As for the communication problem, it was his fault for not either a) learning English in the 50 years he's been here, or b) being patient enough to wait for someone to interpret between him and the police officer. He hasn't lived in Oriental culture for 50 years! It is absolutely not acceptable for him to move here, live here for that long, then claim his culture is different. The officer did not handle the matter wrong. The old man did. He should have had some patience.

    Obviously you are much more willing to believe a single account from an old man than anything else that comes out or actually rationally look at the evidence we have. There is very little evidence of any "beating". The head wound that caused the only blood on the man came from hitting his head on the pavement, which could have been either him being "pushed" there by the officers or him falling, as witnesses claim. But instead of saying it could be either, you automatically assume it had to be the cops pushing the man to the ground with nothing more than his word. And I'm not even really saying the man is lying. He could simply be mistaken.

    I don't support bad cops. But I also do not support automatically assuming cops are bad based off the one person's description of a single incident. I support getting all the info before jumping to the conclusion that cops in a given situation are bad.
    I have lived here for just as long and have been jaywalking all my life here in the US even now and never have a thought about being jaywalking. It's not like you're committing a crime and have to be aware all the time.

    Again, language barrier is still no justification for the police to handle the old man like that whether rough him up or let him fall. You or I don't have to believe a word of what the old man said. There is simply no justification for an 84 year-old man to be bloodied and ended up in the hospital even for pushing the officer, assuming it was true, due to jaywalking violation. Police should be able to handle an old man better than this. That's what I'm saying.

    BTW, there was an Oriental eyewitness at the scene the police could call out to. I'm sure there are many around where the old man lived.
    Last edited by dolphinocean; 01-28-14 at 10:58 PM.

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    re: Gang of NYPD cops beating up on 84 year-old man for jaywalking [W:129]

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    And it appears some of the outrage over this really is unfounded since witnesses in the area claim the injury the guy received was due to falling, not being pushed.

    'I'm walkin' here!': New York takes aim at jaywalking, tickets people in too much of a hurry | Star Tribune

    "Police Commissioner Bill Bratton said witnesses gave the impression Wong was hurt in a fall, not as a result of excessive police force."

    Sure they could be lying. But so could this guy. It is not that hard to believe an 84 year old man who admits to "resisting" the police could fall down and hit his head, particularly if he was already in handcuffs when it happened but still fighting (as it appears he is in the picture in the OP).

    I'm a pedestrian often. And I see what happens. Both pedestrians and motorists tend to get impatient and/or not pay attention to what is going on and/or simply not obey the traffic rules. I have been upset with both. I have jaywalked myself. In some pretty dangerous ways. But had I been caught, I would have deserved the ticket. It's that simple. Now, if the cop was wrong, it should be fought in court. Get witnesses (another good reason to know how to speak the language of the majority of the people in the place you live in, so that you can talk to them if stuff like this happens in order to get their help right away). If available (and its NYC, I think they have cameras everywhere), see if you can bring in the tapes of what happened. Or just fight the ticket. Heck, the tickets aren't even expensive.
    There are old people that it'd take 2 minutes to cross the street and in NYC just because you have the walk signal doesn't mean you can just start walking either. The place is a madhouse.

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    re: Gang of NYPD cops beating up on 84 year-old man for jaywalking [W:129]

    The cops had to beat the crap out of him... The reason it took so many of them is the old man was a secret Ninja with the Kung Foo grip.

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    re: Gang of NYPD cops beating up on 84 year-old man for jaywalking [W:129]

    Quote Originally Posted by dolphinocean View Post
    I have lived here for just as long and have been jaywalking all my life here in the US even now and never have a thought about being jaywalking. It's not like you're committing a crime and have to be aware all the time.

    Again, language barrier is still no justification for the police to handle the old man like that whether rough him up or let him fall. You or I don't have to believe a word of what the old man said. There is simply no justification for an 84 year-old man to be bloodied and ended up in the hospital even for pushing the officer, assuming it was true, due to jaywalking violation. Police should be able to handle an old man better than this. That's what I'm saying.

    BTW, there was an Oriental eyewitness at the scene the police could call out to. I'm sure there are many around where the old man lived.
    Jaywalking is a crime, a traffic violation, like speeding or texting while driving. It is pretty much everywhere in the US. Now, what constitutes actual jaywalking can vary, but ignorance is not an excuse under the law. You should know when you can and cannot cross the street and that you can get ticketed for crossing at the wrong times, particularly when doing so at a crosswalk.

    The pushing, even if it did occur, was not for the jaywalking. It would have been for the disorderly conduct that came from the old man's impatience. He was fighting them though so if he fell, that is not the police officer's fault. It is sad that he got hurt, but had he not fought the cops, tried to walk away or push the officer, then it wouldn't have happened. He could have fought the ticket in court and most likely not had to even pay it.

    The police cannot detain a citizen for purposes of being a translator. If the person had offered assistance, they could have possibly used that person. But it either wasn't offered or wasn't effective, given the details we have.
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    re: Gang of NYPD cops beating up on 84 year-old man for jaywalking [W:129]

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    There are old people that it'd take 2 minutes to cross the street and in NYC just because you have the walk signal doesn't mean you can just start walking either. The place is a madhouse.
    The law says not to start after a certain point. Don't do it. And if you want to fight it, fight it in court, not on the street with the cop issuing the ticket.
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    re: Gang of NYPD cops beating up on 84 year-old man for jaywalking [W:129]

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Jaywalking is a crime, a traffic violation, like speeding or texting while driving. It is pretty much everywhere in the US. Now, what constitutes actual jaywalking can vary, but ignorance is not an excuse under the law. You should know when you can and cannot cross the street and that you can get ticketed for crossing at the wrong times, particularly when doing so at a crosswalk.

    The pushing, even if it did occur, was not for the jaywalking. It would have been for the disorderly conduct that came from the old man's impatience. He was fighting them though so if he fell, that is not the police officer's fault. It is sad that he got hurt, but had he not fought the cops, tried to walk away or push the officer, then it wouldn't have happened. He could have fought the ticket in court and most likely not had to even pay it.

    The police cannot detain a citizen for purposes of being a translator. If the person had offered assistance, they could have possibly used that person. But it either wasn't offered or wasn't effective, given the details we have.
    Jaywalking is NOT a crime. At most it's a simple violation of traffic ordinance like a parking ticket. You don't go to spend a day in jail, the most is you pay a fine.

    You don't know what actually transpired between the cops and the old man and you talked about the old man fighting the cops as if it's a proven fact.

    I've an 84 year-old parent who also walks about to the stores and visiting friends. If some able body cops would put my elderly parent through such bloody situation, rest assure I'd find them cops and beat the crap out of their lives and go to jail if I have to. Apparently, you would blame your elderly parent or grandparent if they failed to obey the police officers.

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