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Thread: Utah will not recognize same-sex marriages performed before high court stay

  1. #81
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    Re: Utah will not recognize same-sex marriages performed before high court stay

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    It wasn't against state law.
    So why is there a court case?
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

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    Re: Utah will not recognize same-sex marriages performed before high court stay

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    This is a debate site. As such everything is read under the light that it's an argument. The only reason to bring up cohabitation is to say SSM should be legal because gays are living together anyway.
    No, it was brought up to indicate that if gay couples had to wait a few months for the courts to work it out, their lives would not be appreciably altered simply because the majority had already been cohabiting before they got the marriage license.

    My comments had nothing to do with the pros or cons of gay marriage, simple had to do with the legal process and timing.
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

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    Re: Utah will not recognize same-sex marriages performed before high court stay

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    Do you believe the State of Utah was offering these marriage licenses? I thought it was similar to California/San Francisco, where a Mayor granted licenses against State law and the referendum while the matter was still in the courts. I don't know how Utah is governed, but I believe local municipalities offer marriage licenses.
    Well yes it is the local counties I believe that offer them. But unlike in the San Francisco case they were legal when they were given out and I think they ought not be retroactively voided.
    There should be Instant Runoff Voting

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    Re: Utah will not recognize same-sex marriages performed before high court stay

    Quote Originally Posted by Anagram View Post
    Well yes it is the local counties I believe that offer them. But unlike in the San Francisco case they were legal when they were given out and I think they ought not be retroactively voided.
    Well, you could argue, as the State might, that while the State still had the time and ability to appeal a lesser court's ruling, they weren't actually legal. No court matter that is subject to appeal to a higher court is "settled" until such time as the last court of appeal has heard the matter and ruled or until the losing side waives their right of appeal. In this case, seems that some local counties decided to process some licenses for the very reason you state - once granted, it would seem unfair to retroactively void them. But put yourself in the State's position - if they are eventually successful, they are going to void them anyway, so that would make it even harder on some, wouldn't it?
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

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    Re: Utah will not recognize same-sex marriages performed before high court stay

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    Equality under the law... LOL, you're kidding right? How many laws in this nation have organizations been exempt from, heck entire states have been given exemption from national laws, the ACA is a prime example if you need a recent one.


    Tim-
    Equal protection can be circumvented if the correct level of state interest is shown.

    Name that interest in preventing a same-sex marriage.
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: Utah will not recognize same-sex marriages performed before high court stay

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    So why is there a court case?
    Because there's an appeal to the decision. Issuing the certificates wasn't against state law because the state law had been overturned by the court.
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: Utah will not recognize same-sex marriages performed before high court stay

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    Equal protection can be circumvented if the correct level of state interest is shown.

    Name that interest in preventing a same-sex marriage.
    Sums up my take on the rationale behind denying gay marriage quite nicely.

    http://sblog.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-con...on-7-31-12.pdf

    It's long but well worth the read if you or anyone else is truly interested in why society has the right and responsibility to oppose gay marriage. I doubt you'll read it, as every time I've posted it, the person I've posted it for clams up. Will you, Deuce?


    Tim-
    “When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators.” - P. J. O’Rourke
    “Socialism is great until you run out of someone elses money” Margaret Thatcher

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    Re: Utah will not recognize same-sex marriages performed before high court stay

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    Sums up my take on the rationale behind denying gay marriage quite nicely.

    http://sblog.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-con...on-7-31-12.pdf

    It's long but well worth the read if you or anyone else is truly interested in why society has the right and responsibility to oppose gay marriage. I doubt you'll read it, as every time I've posted it, the person I've posted it for clams up. Will you, Deuce?


    Tim-
    It's 497 pages, it doesn't "sum up" anything. Don't act like you're going for open and honest debate here. Explain the rationale yourself, don't give people a book to read and think you've won an argument.

    Hell, don't even act like you have read it, because we all know you haven't.
    Last edited by Deuce; 01-10-14 at 03:45 PM.
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: Utah will not recognize same-sex marriages performed before high court stay

    Feds recognize same-sex couples in Utah
    SALT LAKE CITY (AP) — The Obama administration extended federal recognition to the marriages of more than 1,000 same-sex couples in Utah that took place before the Supreme Court put those unions in the state on hold

    Feds recognize same-sex couples in Utah

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    Re: Utah will not recognize same-sex marriages performed before high court stay

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    It's 497 pages, it doesn't "sum up" anything. Don't act like you're going for open and honest debate here. Explain the rationale yourself, don't give people a book to read and think you've won an argument.

    Hell, don't even act like you have read it, because we all know you haven't.
    So that's a no? In terms of legal language this appeals brief is a summation of the questions surrounding the Prop 8 decision. What you think legal briefs are short? LOL.. I've never read a short one, perhaps you can show me one. In legal circles, you must be formal in your language, you must provide a timetable of events, and you must make arguments for each event and ask the court to review each based on the merits. IN an appeals brief, you're essentially asking the court to review the evidence, and the facts, and consider precedence where applicable. In short, the 9th circuit relied on a misapplication of previous decisions, it misapplied the precedence of its own courts decisions regarding how they handled similar challenges as ballot initiatives, and it also misapplied and misinterpreted how to apply a rational basis test in Prop 8. The 9th circuit relied on other states decisions that were dissimilar in context and outcome to form their majority opinion. The court, it was argued, was making law, in spite of the will of the people on a matter that was in every legally recognizable way, and based even on the courts own previous rulings, a matter left to the people to decide for themselves. Due process was served, and equal protection on a rational basis was met, and yet the court still struck down Prop 8. The brief argues that the court in its peculiar interpretation of the precedence was erroneous and egregiously legislating form the bench. It asks the SCOTUS to acknowledge these concerns and return to the people the amendment seeking to grant marriage to only that of a man and a woman, and to preserve the right of homosexuals to form civil unions. People forget that in Prop 8 they did not seek to take away rights to civil unions that was already granted in a prior legislative measure, but only to protect the traditional designation of marriage to that of a man and a woman. Still the 9th circuit ruled in its majority decision that it was the purpose of the people to punish by animosity a select group of individuals based on an unpopular charcter trait.

    Of course it's more in-depth in the brief, and if you truly want to understand the reasoning behind upholding traditional marriage then read the damn thing, but as I predicted, you won't as it doesn't fit with your narrative that all that are against gay marriage are mean spirited homophobic bigots.. So continue on.


    Tim-
    “When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators.” - P. J. O’Rourke
    “Socialism is great until you run out of someone elses money” Margaret Thatcher

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