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Thread: Satanists Unveil 7-Foot Baphomet Statue For Oklahoma State Capitol

  1. #181
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    Re: Satanists Unveil 7-Foot Baphomet Statue For Oklahoma State Capitol

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    As I stated, I used the quote tool to directly quote you. If you'd like to use this as an excuse to run off, feel free. You don't strike me as someone who will stand up for his convictions anyway. Our society was in no way, shape, or form, based on the 10 commandments.
    You can see that even when you quote me directly me you still can't get it right. I said, as you quoted " That other groups had laws similar to the 10 Commandments is not open to dispute, nor that many writings based on Christianity have contributed to western culture and laws. The 10 Commandments serve as a reminder to the laws of man and how they are handed down over the generations, that law is something that always bind societies together in order that we can live in peace with each other. If the 10 Commandments are insignificant it's amazing that so many atheists claim to be offended by them".

    To this you responded "Our society was in no way, shape, or form, based on the 10 commandments".

    Now any reasonably literate person can quickly peruse that paragraph and understand that nowhere did I claim that "Our society was based on the Ten Commandments". Where is that coming from??

    So why are you saying I said anything like that? You "paraphrase", read things that I never said, and generally fail to get any points being made. Go stalk someone else, okay?

  2. #182
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    Re: Satanists Unveil 7-Foot Baphomet Statue For Oklahoma State Capitol

    Quote Originally Posted by RogueWarrior View Post
    I not concerned with which to install, however those who do want to install them should be concerned. Will it be the protestant, catholic or jewish version or some combination thereof? My concern is that the wall between church and state be respected.
    Then let that be the concern of the people who install them, Surely their are more important issues which need addressing.

    The 1st amendment says no government Church should be established. No Church is being established.

    Would you allow the religious laws of other cultures to be enshrined in the same way?
    No. Why should they be? They were not here during the founding and have had no influence on American history, human rights or jurisprudence.
    There over 600 hundred jewish laws I guess their monument will be bigger. I have no idea how many other laws from hindus and muslim or any of the others. However, I don't see that flying with fundamentalists of any stripe.
    Why are you concerned about 'bigger'? I wasn't aware that was an issue.And why should Americans concern themselves with Hindus or Muslims. They were not here while America was being established and are not an integral part of American history. They enter America knowing it's history and should be able to accept and respect that, just as we would if we settled in one of their countries.

  3. #183
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    Re: Satanists Unveil 7-Foot Baphomet Statue For Oklahoma State Capitol

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Then let that be the concern of the people who install them, Surely their are more important issues which need addressing.

    The 1st amendment says no government Church should be established. No Church is being established.

    No. Why should they be? They were not here during the founding and have had no influence on American history, human rights or jurisprudence.
    Why are you concerned about 'bigger'? I wasn't aware that was an issue.And why should Americans concern themselves with Hindus or Muslims. They were not here while America was being established and are not an integral part of American history. They enter America knowing it's history and should be able to accept and respect that, just as we would if we settled in one of their countries.
    You don't think Jews and Muslims existed in America then?
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: Satanists Unveil 7-Foot Baphomet Statue For Oklahoma State Capitol

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    You don't think Jews and Muslims existed in America then?
    The poster had mentioned Hindus and Muslims.

  5. #185
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    Re: Satanists Unveil 7-Foot Baphomet Statue For Oklahoma State Capitol

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    No. Why should they be? They were not here during the founding and have had no influence on American history, human rights or jurisprudence.
    .
    Hmmmmmmm

    There is crystal clear historical evidence that many of the Founding Fathers of America were directly influenced by the English thinkers such as John Lock and Isaac Newton who were thoroughly influenced by Islamic sciences, theology, political thinking and morality. Thomas Jefferson, one of the most important Founding Fathers, the principal author of the United States Declaration of Independence (1776) and the third President of the United States (1801–1809) identified Francis Bacon, John Locke, and Isaac Newton as "the three greatest men that have ever lived, without any exception," in his 1789 letter ordering portraits of them from the American painter, John Trumbull. Jefferson also declared Locke as the most important thinker on liberty. Jefferson and his Declaration of Independence were heavily influenced by John Locke. One can see in the text of the document, and even in the list of reasons given to separate from Great Britain, Locke's words, ideas, and theories coming into play. One of the most noticeable instances of direct influence is in the preamble, where the Declaration of Independence proclaims the right of every man to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness". These terms were borrowed from Locke's Second Treatise, as will be seen below. John Adams thought the DOI was copied from Locke, and James Madison apologized for its plagiarism by saying that "The object was to assert, not to discover truths." These and other Lockean ideas were eventually incorporated into the American Constitution and became intrinsic part of the American dream.
    Locke also helped inspire another Founding Father Thomas Paine’s radical ideas about revolution. Locke fired up George Mason. From Locke, James Madison derived his principles of liberty and government. Locke’s writings were part of Benjamin Franklin’s self-education, and John Adams believed that both girls and boys should learn about Locke. The French philosopher Voltaire called Locke “the man of the greatest wisdom. What he has not seen clearly, I despair of ever seeing.”

    John Locke (August 1632 – 28 October 1704), was accused of being a “Moslim” by his adversaries such as John Edwards (1637–1716), an ordained Deacon and English Calvinistic divine, because his religious beliefs and political outlook closely resembled the Islamic teachings. Locke argued in his “Reasonableness of Christianity” (1695) that Jesus was neither God nor divine but just a Messiah. He advocated that the Church should reject its hierarchical structure and authority, abandon its irrational beliefs such as Trinity and superstitious theology including beliefs in mysteries and miracles, forfeit its creed and sacraments, its pagan liturgy, customs and traditions in favor of one requirement for membership and salvation- to acknowledge and believe that Jesus Christ was the Messiah. Justin Champion and others have shown that John Locke’s adversaries saw in him a Muslim who interpreted the Christian Gospel in light of the Koran (Qur’an). Champion states that “Indeed Edwards in his Socinianism Unmasked (1696) had confronted John Locke, the author of the Reasonableness of Christianity (1695), firstly as a Socinian, and then by implication as a Moslem. He wrote with obvious malevolence, 'It is likely I shall further exasperate this author when I desire the reader to observe that this lank faith of his is in a manner no other than the faith of a Turk'. Edwards objected to Locke's assertion that there was only one necessary defining credal belief in Christianity accessible to all understandings, i.e. that Jesus was the Messiah. Edwards slyly commented that Locke 'seems to have consulted the Mahometan bible'. We know that Locke possessed an edition of the Koran.”

    Founding Father's of America's Indebtedness to Islamic Thought | Fiqh Council Of North America

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    Re: Satanists Unveil 7-Foot Baphomet Statue For Oklahoma State Capitol

    Quote Originally Posted by winston53660 View Post
    Hmmmmmmm

    There is crystal clear historical evidence that many of the Founding Fathers of America were directly influenced by the English thinkers such as John Lock and Isaac Newton who were thoroughly influenced by Islamic sciences, theology, political thinking and morality. Thomas Jefferson, one of the most important Founding Fathers, the principal author of the United States Declaration of Independence (1776) and the third President of the United States (1801–1809) identified Francis Bacon, John Locke, and Isaac Newton as "the three greatest men that have ever lived, without any exception," in his 1789 letter ordering portraits of them from the American painter, John Trumbull. Jefferson also declared Locke as the most important thinker on liberty. Jefferson and his Declaration of Independence were heavily influenced by John Locke. One can see in the text of the document, and even in the list of reasons given to separate from Great Britain, Locke's words, ideas, and theories coming into play. One of the most noticeable instances of direct influence is in the preamble, where the Declaration of Independence proclaims the right of every man to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness". These terms were borrowed from Locke's Second Treatise, as will be seen below. John Adams thought the DOI was copied from Locke, and James Madison apologized for its plagiarism by saying that "The object was to assert, not to discover truths." These and other Lockean ideas were eventually incorporated into the American Constitution and became intrinsic part of the American dream.
    Locke also helped inspire another Founding Father Thomas Paine’s radical ideas about revolution. Locke fired up George Mason. From Locke, James Madison derived his principles of liberty and government. Locke’s writings were part of Benjamin Franklin’s self-education, and John Adams believed that both girls and boys should learn about Locke. The French philosopher Voltaire called Locke “the man of the greatest wisdom. What he has not seen clearly, I despair of ever seeing.”

    John Locke (August 1632 – 28 October 1704), was accused of being a “Moslim” by his adversaries such as John Edwards (1637–1716), an ordained Deacon and English Calvinistic divine, because his religious beliefs and political outlook closely resembled the Islamic teachings. Locke argued in his “Reasonableness of Christianity” (1695) that Jesus was neither God nor divine but just a Messiah. He advocated that the Church should reject its hierarchical structure and authority, abandon its irrational beliefs such as Trinity and superstitious theology including beliefs in mysteries and miracles, forfeit its creed and sacraments, its pagan liturgy, customs and traditions in favor of one requirement for membership and salvation- to acknowledge and believe that Jesus Christ was the Messiah. Justin Champion and others have shown that John Locke’s adversaries saw in him a Muslim who interpreted the Christian Gospel in light of the Koran (Qur’an). Champion states that “Indeed Edwards in his Socinianism Unmasked (1696) had confronted John Locke, the author of the Reasonableness of Christianity (1695), firstly as a Socinian, and then by implication as a Moslem. He wrote with obvious malevolence, 'It is likely I shall further exasperate this author when I desire the reader to observe that this lank faith of his is in a manner no other than the faith of a Turk'. Edwards objected to Locke's assertion that there was only one necessary defining credal belief in Christianity accessible to all understandings, i.e. that Jesus was the Messiah. Edwards slyly commented that Locke 'seems to have consulted the Mahometan bible'. We know that Locke possessed an edition of the Koran.”

    Founding Father's of America's Indebtedness to Islamic Thought | Fiqh Council Of North America
    And all of that means what? That Muslims were influential in the founding of the United States? Some vague references to John Locke, where malevolence is a factor, means very, very little.

    However I have noticed that many Americans are trying to put down Christianity while also building up Islam. You may be interested in this.The Deen Show Did Muslims discover America? | The Deen Show with Eddie

  7. #187
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    Re: Satanists Unveil 7-Foot Baphomet Statue For Oklahoma State Capitol

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Everyone believes themselves to be rational and justified. And yes, there are many other laws apart from the Ten Commandments.



    Why are you concerned about which to install. Is your concern rational and justified or do you genuinely feel this is an important issue?



    And this troubles you because?

    As mentioned earlier we have other laws quite apart from the Ten Commandments. You can relax.



    You're right. The Bill of Rights is a marvelous piece of work, as is the Constitution. More countries should adopt both, and follow them.. However there is often room for tradition as well. The Commandments do no harm, except to the Uber Sensitive.
    My point from the beginning was twofold: First, the Ten Commandments are not a historically influential document to western culture. This is easiest to see by the fact that the arguments for the Ten Commandments always ignore the wording contained in the Ten Commandments. You get things like the Ten Commandments are there to remind you of man's failing, or the need to follow god's word. Basically, the arguments say that Christianity was an important foundation of western culture, and the Ten Commandments are a representation of that religiosity. Feel free to make that argument, but realize that it is a purely religious argument. Exactly zero western laws or legal traditions come from the Ten Commandments.

    Second, the people attempting to install a Satanic statue are doing it most likely to prove a point. The reaction a devout Christian would have when pulling up to a government building and seeing a statue of Satan is exactly analogous to the reaction that a devout NON-Christian would have to seeing the Ten Commandments. It's a thinly veiled message; you may be free to believe what you want, but your beliefs are wrong and mine are right.

  8. #188
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    Re: Satanists Unveil 7-Foot Baphomet Statue For Oklahoma State Capitol

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithros View Post
    My point from the beginning was twofold: First, the Ten Commandments are not a historically influential document to western culture.
    Of course they were, which is why every Christian based country is familiar with them religious or not.

    This is easiest to see by the fact that the arguments for the Ten Commandments always ignore the wording contained in the Ten Commandments. You get things like the Ten Commandments are there to remind you of man's failing, or the need to follow god's word. Basically, the arguments say that Christianity was an important foundation of western culture, and the Ten Commandments are a representation of that religiosity. Feel free to make that argument, but realize that it is a purely religious argument. Exactly zero western laws or legal traditions come from the Ten Commandments.
    I tend to agree but our laws are based on Christian teaching and because the 10 Commandments are the earliest reference to Christian/Judaic God's Laws, they would seem to have a symbolic place in the common culture. The harm they might do is minimal, nothing actually, so this mini tempest would only seem to missing a teapot.

    Second, the people attempting to install a Satanic statue are doing it most likely to prove a point. The reaction a devout Christian would have when pulling up to a government building and seeing a statue of Satan is exactly analogous to the reaction that a devout NON-Christian would have to seeing the Ten Commandments. It's a thinly veiled message; you may be free to believe what you want, but your beliefs are wrong and mine are right.[/QUOTE]

  9. #189
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    Re: Satanists Unveil 7-Foot Baphomet Statue For Oklahoma State Capitol

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Of course they were, which is why every Christian based country is familiar with them religious or not.

    I tend to agree but our laws are based on Christian teaching and because the 10 Commandments are the earliest reference to Christian/Judaic God's Laws, they would seem to have a symbolic place in the common culture. The harm they might do is minimal, nothing actually, so this mini tempest would only seem to missing a teapot.
    .
    I'm not even sure you can say that. Which of our laws are based on Christian teaching? I mean, there's no question that there are some: the anti-sodomy laws, drug law, and bans against same sex marriage all have their origins in Christian morality. But the basic premises of western legal philosophy; separation of powers, trial by jury, presumed innocence, equality, and contract law.... these all originated outside Christianity. In fact, most of these originated in direct opposition to Christianity.

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