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Thread: Bill Nye the Science Guy to debate Creation museum founder Ken Ham[W:164, 712]

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    re: Bill Nye the Science Guy to debate Creation museum founder Ken Ham[W:164]

    Creationists are certainly an American political force that should be dealt with, not ignored, but I do think that these high profile debates really lower scientists by having them stoop to a level that is quite beneath them. You shouldn't argue with a fool because soon people won't be able to tell the difference.

    Besides which, there is nothing philosophically incongruent in believing that creationism and evolution co-exist. The problem is that evolution is a scientific reality, and creationism is religious allegory. The two do not have compatible epistemologies or requirements for proof, and on those grounds I will always fight creationists. In no uncertain terms should creationism be considered scientific.

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    re: Bill Nye the Science Guy to debate Creation museum founder Ken Ham[W:164]

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Bill Nye a bigot? I think people have really forgotten what that word means.
    Oh no. There are some around here who think that bigot means simply intolerance of the ideas of others. Personally, I am intolerant of this ridiculous definition, since it is abundantly obvious that absolutely no one started using it this way until a few years ago. And also because people started using it in this ridiculous manner simply to create a false sense that all ideas should be treated with equal respect.

    Luckily, there are indeed dictionaries that give more sensible meanings to words.
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    re: Bill Nye the Science Guy to debate Creation museum founder Ken Ham[W:164]

    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Light View Post
    Creationists are certainly an American political force that should be dealt with, not ignored, but I do think that these high profile debates really lower scientists by having them stoop to a level that is quite beneath them. You shouldn't argue with a fool because soon people won't be able to tell the difference.

    Besides which, there is nothing philosophically incongruent in believing that creationism and evolution co-exist. The problem is that evolution is a scientific reality, and creationism is religious allegory. The two do not have compatible epistemologies or requirements for proof, and on those grounds I will always fight creationists. In no uncertain terms should creationism be considered scientific.
    Creationists who believe the Earth is 6000 years old don't agree with you that their beliefs are allegory. Those are the people being considered in this thread, more or less.
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    re: Bill Nye the Science Guy to debate Creation museum founder Ken Ham[W:164]

    Quote Originally Posted by Dezaad View Post
    Creationists who believe the Earth is 6000 years old don't agree with you that their beliefs are allegory. Those are the people being considered in this thread, more or less.
    I don't believe the same thing they do, but they are entitled to believe what they want. Should they get to call it science, though? I don't think so.

    That's the problem here... people who don't understand the 21st century concept of empirical evidence are still trying to wave the Bible at everyone else like they did in the 16th century, back when it was the primary text on the reason for everything. It doesn't work that way anymore, and no amount of counter-culture about it is going to change that.

    I do have some problems with material reductionism being the only accepted school of knowledge at this time, but it has been our natural progression toward it, and away from religion. Religion is never going to have more appeal to people who value the school of rationality. It's just not happening. The Bible can't be proven or disproven, it's faith based.

    Bill Nye is going to totally debunk this creationist turd, but it's not going to change his faith in anything. That's why I find the debate totally pointless. All it does is give free advertising to creationism, which has nothing to do with the school of rationality.

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    re: Bill Nye the Science Guy to debate Creation museum founder Ken Ham[W:164]

    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Light View Post
    Creationists are certainly an American political force that should be dealt with, not ignored, but I do think that these high profile debates really lower scientists by having them stoop to a level that is quite beneath them. You shouldn't argue with a fool because soon people won't be able to tell the difference.
    That's a nice thought in theory, but in reality being able to argue successfully with a fool is an extremely important real world skill. Fools will be in positions of power who can inconvenience you, from the fools on the school board who've decided to eliminate the arts and humanities program in favor of increased sports, to the fools in customer support, to the fools in government who decided to eliminate regulations on stock trading. Obama ignored the fools who demanded to see proof of his American citizenship, but they only shut up (most of them, anyway) when he finally got down into the mud with them and publicly showed his birth certificate.

    Arguing with fools: learn it or face a really difficult life.

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    re: Bill Nye the Science Guy to debate Creation museum founder Ken Ham[W:164]

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    That's a nice thought in theory, but in reality being able to argue successfully with a fool is an extremely important real world skill. Fools will be in positions of power who can inconvenience you, from the fools on the school board who've decided to eliminate the arts and humanities program in favor of increased sports, to the fools in customer support, to the fools in government who decided to eliminate regulations on stock trading. Obama ignored the fools who demanded to see proof of his American citizenship, but they only shut up (most of them, anyway) when he finally got down into the mud with them and publicly showed his birth certificate.

    Arguing with fools: learn it or face a really difficult life.
    I agree that sometimes it's necessary. In other cases is only emboldens them, especially if you make them lose face publicly. Creationists are never ever going to change their view of reality, no matter how much it is proven to be incompatible with the scientific method. Both sides have their own people in the dog fight and those people are not going to change. Most modern, educated Americans are fully aware that "creation science" is BS, so why give them a high profile excuse to proselytize?

    I will concede though that in a place like America, the argument matters because idiotic ideologies that gain popular support can cause real changes, much like the pro-life movement. Unfortunately, in America, secularism and logic are not always required to pass laws. Sometimes it just requires repeating the same wrong idea ad nauseum until enough people start believing it, i.e. by indoctrinating children.

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    re: Bill Nye the Science Guy to debate Creation museum founder Ken Ham[W:164]

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post

    There are two fundamental laws in Biology:

    1. All of the phenomena of biology, the entities and the processes, are ultimately obedient to the laws of physics and chemistry. Not immediately reducible to them, but ultimately consistent and in consilience with them, by a cause and effect explanation.

    2. All biological phenomena, these entities and processes that define life itself, have arisen by evolution through natural selection.

    The fact that some ignorant fundamentalists don't accept that has does not call those laws into question. It merely demonstrates their ignorance.
    I'm more concerned with the "ignorant fundamentalists" who come up with fundamental laws that are fundamentally false and only serve to illustrate that many people fail to understand that there is more.to evolution than natural selection.

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    re: Bill Nye the Science Guy to debate Creation museum founder Ken Ham[W:164]

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    I'm more concerned with the "ignorant fundamentalists" who come up with fundamental laws that are fundamentally false and only serve to illustrate that many people fail to understand that there is more.to evolution than natural selection.
    Speaking in vague generalities gets you nowhere. What else is there to evolution? Climate? Accounted for. Habitat? Accounted for. Sea levels? Accounted for. Amount of CO2 in the atmosphere? Accounted for. What exactly are are scientists missing that you're not? God?
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    re: Bill Nye the Science Guy to debate Creation museum founder Ken Ham[W:164]

    Are you saying that accepted scientific laws are fundamentally false. On what grounds?

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    I'm more concerned with the "ignorant fundamentalists" who come up with fundamental laws that are fundamentally false and only serve to illustrate that many people fail to understand that there is more.to evolution than natural selection.

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    re: Bill Nye the Science Guy to debate Creation museum founder Ken Ham[W:164]

    I am betting her so called researched and intricate knowledge of evolution doesn't come from any scientific sources at all.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Speaking in vague generalities gets you nowhere. What else is there to evolution? Climate? Accounted for. Habitat? Accounted for. Sea levels? Accounted for. Amount of CO2 in the atmosphere? Accounted for. What exactly are are scientists missing that you're not? God?

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