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Thread: Bill Nye the Science Guy to debate Creation museum founder Ken Ham[W:164, 712]

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    re: Bill Nye the Science Guy to debate Creation museum founder Ken Ham[W:164]

    Quote Originally Posted by smb View Post
    No I am not. Belief is just that belief. It requires no proof. Observable fact is just that fact. It requires proof. You can have knowledge of something based on facts. You can exrapolate a belief from those fact that do not have observable proof but then it is just a belief and no longer a kown fact. Belief systems require no facts they are taking on faith or trust.
    Are belief and faith the same thing?
    If so could you provide a definition for each?
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    re: Bill Nye the Science Guy to debate Creation museum founder Ken Ham[W:164]

    Quote Originally Posted by beefheart View Post
    Wow. Is that how you approach science?
    Define "observable".

    Then tell me whether or not the creation of our planet is observable.

    And then put a check on your sneer, if you please. It doesn't help your argument.

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    re: Bill Nye the Science Guy to debate Creation museum founder Ken Ham[W:164]

    Quote Originally Posted by RogueWarrior View Post
    Are belief and faith the same thing?
    If so could you provide a definition for each?
    Very similar but not the same thing. Before you go off on definition 3 I would caution you that it does not specify the validity of evidence just that evidence exists. You can believe in creationism based on the evidence of the Bible but that does not make it observable fact.

    Belief

    1: a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing
    2: something believed; especially : a tenet or body of tenets held by a group
    3: conviction of the truth of some statement or the reality of some being or phenomenon especially when based on examination of evidence

    Faith

    1a : allegiance to duty or a person : loyalty b (1) : fidelity to one's promises (2) : sincerity of intentions
    2a (1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust
    3: something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefs <the Protestant faith>

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    re: Bill Nye the Science Guy to debate Creation museum founder Ken Ham[W:164]

    Quote Originally Posted by GJ Flash View Post
    Define "observable".

    Then tell me whether or not the creation of our planet is observable.

    And then put a check on your sneer, if you please. It doesn't help your argument.
    You don't need to observe something to have evidence for it, there is a great deal of scientific understanding regarding planetary formation. ALL Geological and Astronomical data shows that thinking the earth was created in 6 days 6000 years ago, or in 6 days period, is absolutely baseless and wrong. All of the evidence shows the earth being closer to 4.8 billion years old and its formation occurred over hundreds of millions of years.

    We have historical evidence that the Chinese were domesticating the water buffalo before this guy claims the earth was created. Thinking the earth is 6k years old is as retarded as thinking the distance from New York to California is 6 meters.
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    re: Bill Nye the Science Guy to debate Creation museum founder Ken Ham[W:164]

    Quote Originally Posted by GJ Flash View Post
    Define "observable".

    Then tell me whether or not the creation of our planet is observable.

    And then put a check on your sneer, if you please. It doesn't help your argument.


    Observable means what it says. We can observe DNA from man and great ape and back progressively and determine common ancestry. We can observe fossil records and see the progression of bones that were pectoral fins that gradually became hands. We don't have to be in a time machine to go and observe dinosaurs, we have the fossils, we know the DNA.

    Versus creationism, which has no observations, just the words jotted in a book that can only claim it is the word of god, because god says it is the word of god. Creationists have to ultimately rely on "...and then, a miracle happened..." to prove their point. Miracles that defy the laws of physics, are non observable, non repeatable and exist only in anecdotal form in books of fables.

    Like I said, go ahead and teach creationist ignorance in churches, stay the hell out of public schools.

    If you don't like my "sneer" that is your problem, I don't like your arrogance, but I'm still talking to you.

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    re: Bill Nye the Science Guy to debate Creation museum founder Ken Ham[W:164]

    Quote Originally Posted by GJ Flash View Post
    I define bigotry as intolerance towards the beliefs of others, which Bill has demonstrated numerous times.
    Sorry, but when people hold foolish beliefs, there is nothing wrong in pointing out that they are foolish. This absurd idea that everyone's beliefs are equally valid is ridiculous. Just because someone wants to believe something doesn't mean that they ought to believe it.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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    re: Bill Nye the Science Guy to debate Creation museum founder Ken Ham[W:164]

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    I also hope it's not just another debate where the creationist attacks evolution and the other guy just flails around defending it the whole time. I hope Bill takes the fight to creationism.
    Unfortunately, most creationists are slimy critters, that's why "debate" tactics like the Gish Gallop are ridiculously common among creationist "debaters". They just throw out so many absurd claims and the scientist has no time during their 3-5 minute rebuttal period, to disprove them all and the creationist says "see, they can't answer, therefore I'm right!"

    I don't think Nye ought to debate Ham or even give him the time of day. It only makes Ham look better and it doesn't do Nye any good.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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    re: Bill Nye the Science Guy to debate Creation museum founder Ken Ham[W:164]

    Quote Originally Posted by GJ Flash View Post
    My belief system is a mix of faith and fact. I have been a man of faith my entire life. I have studied or followed just about every religion on Earth, but my "major" has been Christianity. I have never met anyone who thought the Earth was only 6,000 years old. Maybe I travel in different circles than some.

    Your god, science, told me that avocados are full of bad fat that will kill me quickly. Then your god said oops, never mind, I made a mistake.
    Now your god says that we will all die in a fire of global warming. Some of your god's apostles got trapped in a bunch of ice last month that was supposed to be melted by now. Just saying.

    My point is, no one can say with certain factual evidence exactly how old the Earth is. No one was there to observe it. We can estimate, yes, but we can't name a number and call it fact, because facts change. Like avocado "facts". And global warming "facts".
    I think you are highly misinformed about who Ken Ham is and what is displayed in the creationist museum. It is a young earth creationist museum, meaning they try to push that the earth is only 6,000 years old.

    A few goodies:
    - Humans and dinosaurs lived together a few thousand years ago, and humans kept some as pets.
    - The grand canyon was carved in a matter of weeks by Noah's flood.

    Unless your beliefs line up with stuff like that, I would avoid sticking up for him in debates.

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    re: Bill Nye the Science Guy to debate Creation museum founder Ken Ham[W:164]

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Unfortunately, most creationists are slimy critters, that's why "debate" tactics like the Gish Gallop are ridiculously common among creationist "debaters". They just throw out so many absurd claims and the scientist has no time during their 3-5 minute rebuttal period, to disprove them all and the creationist says "see, they can't answer, therefore I'm right!"

    I don't think Nye ought to debate Ham or even give him the time of day. It only makes Ham look better and it doesn't do Nye any good.
    I had to look Gish Gallop up.

    The Gish Gallop, named after creationist Duane Gish, is the debating technique of drowning the opponent in such a torrent of half-truths, lies, and straw-man arguments that the opponent cannot possibly answer every falsehood in real time. The term was coined by Eugenie Scott of the National Center for Science Education. Sam Harris describes the technique as "starting 10 fires in 10 minutes."
    Gish Gallop - RationalWiki

    Yep, that's about right.

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    re: Bill Nye the Science Guy to debate Creation museum founder Ken Ham[W:164]

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    - Humans and dinosaurs lived together a few thousand years ago, and humans kept some as pets.

    I have proof!!!!

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