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Bill Nye the Science Guy to debate Creation museum founder Ken Ham[W:164, 712]

Re: Bill Nye the Science Guy to debate Creation museum founder Ken Ham[W:164]

That is not a scientific study. It is an article about a book and an expedition. You will not find any published studies in any peer reviewed journals that show evidence of a worldwide flood that wiped out all life with the exception of what was taken on board Noah's Ark.

I'm guessing you missed the bit about the taxonomy and carbon dating of the fossils on the sea bed to determine the geological history of the Black Sea, and the discovery that the sea was once a smaller fresh water lake, lending credence to the theory that the great flood actually did happen? You probably also missed the fact that the study found evidence of ancient buildings 95m under water?

None of this would have been found had we chosen to write off Genesis as entirely mythical.

Frankly, I would question the ability to think critically of anyone that would buy into such nonsense.

I question the ability of someone to think clearly who fails to read a whole article before passing judgement on it.
 
Re: Bill Nye the Science Guy to debate Creation museum founder Ken Ham[W:164]

It dawned on me that you were probably talking about this?

Other than the headline, there is nothing there really to describe what is commonly referred to as civilization. It's certainly what would be considered a precursor to civilization, though.

But you're still looking at YECs who are claiming that the entire universe was created 4000 years ago (or on October 23, 4004 BCE at 9:30am if you want to be specific). Whether we push back the dates of human civilization to 10000 BCE or 20000 BCE, the creationists are still entirely wrong.
 
Re: Bill Nye the Science Guy to debate Creation museum founder Ken Ham[W:164]

Oh, also, you have to actually ignore scientific study to arrive at the conclusion that the great flood definitively never happened.

Oh irony.

No, we only have to look at the facts to conclude that the great flood never happened. There simply isn't enough water on the planet to account for a worldwide flood, which is definitely what the Bible describes. Never happened.
 
Re: Bill Nye the Science Guy to debate Creation museum founder Ken Ham[W:164]

I'm guessing you missed the bit about the taxonomy and carbon dating of the fossils on the sea bed to determine the geological history of the Black Sea, and the discovery that the sea was once a smaller fresh water lake, lending credence to the theory that the great flood actually did happen? You probably also missed the fact that the study found evidence of ancient buildings 95m under water?

None of this would have been found had we chosen to write off Genesis as entirely mythical.

We know that there was once a catastrophic flood at the Black Sea. That is not what is described in Genesis. Any attempt to re-interpret Genesis into a local flood simply doesn't work.
 
Re: Bill Nye the Science Guy to debate Creation museum founder Ken Ham[W:164]

I'm not suggesting that creationists don't believe in prisms. The point is only that when creationists answer "God did it", they're effectively destroying future inquires.

No, that is exactly what you argued. Yo may realize it was a stupid thing to say now, but it doesn't change the fact that you said it.

And no, "God did it" doesn't seem to stop people from conducting scientific investigation as you say. Hell, Galileo believed in God and he still studied the heavens!

I anticipate a future post wherein you again claim to have not said precisely what you just said.

Science pushes the ball forward when we ask why, and get an answer that we're not satisfied with. Then we go out and experiment, measure, and theorize, until we have a better explanation. The problem with creationism is that it draws a stark line "THOU SHALT NOT LOOK BEHIND THIS CURTAIN".

Again, NOBODY IS SAYING THAT. Criminey your argument is nothing but a giant basket full of straw men.

Your attempts to characterize religion on the actions of the church over 400 years ago is like judging all of science based on the Eugenics movement of 100 years ago.
 
Re: Bill Nye the Science Guy to debate Creation museum founder Ken Ham[W:164]

I'm guessing you missed the bit about the taxonomy and carbon dating of the fossils on the sea bed to determine the geological history of the Black Sea, and the discovery that the sea was once a smaller fresh water lake, lending credence to the theory that the great flood actually did happen? You probably also missed the fact that the study found evidence of ancient buildings 95m under water?

None of this would have been found had we chosen to write off Genesis as entirely mythical.



I question the ability of someone to think clearly who fails to read a whole article before passing judgement on it.
Floods happen. They've always happened. Much of the Philippines was devastated by flooding last year. However, because buildings have been found under water doesn't mean that the a global flood put them there.
 
Re: Bill Nye the Science Guy to debate Creation museum founder Ken Ham[W:164]

No, that is exactly what you argued. Yo may realize it was a stupid thing to say now, but it doesn't change the fact that you said it.

And no, "God did it" doesn't seem to stop people from conducting scientific investigation as you say. Hell, Galileo believed in God and he still studied the heavens!

I anticipate a future post wherein you again claim to have not said precisely what you just said.



Again, NOBODY IS SAYING THAT. Criminey your argument is nothing but a giant basket full of straw men.

Your attempts to characterize religion on the actions of the church over 400 years ago is like judging all of science based on the Eugenics movement of 100 years ago.
The problem with creationism is what happens when you ask a question that you don't know the answer to. Creationists say "well the Bible says .... " and that's it. There's no reason for further inquiry. Look at the sun, the Bible says it goes around the Earth; why look further? The Bible says that God created all the animals. Why look any deeper?

The subjects are different, but the idea is the same. Creationism teaches kids to stop asking why when they ask a question no one can answer. Science says look further.
 
Re: Bill Nye the Science Guy to debate Creation museum founder Ken Ham[W:164]

We know that there was once a catastrophic flood at the Black Sea. That is not what is described in Genesis. Any attempt to re-interpret Genesis into a local flood simply doesn't work.

I'm not reinterpreting Genesis, I have never said that the text is 100% factual, I am simply pointing out that statements like "the flood didn't happen" are just as closed minded as people here claim Christians are. A massive flood DID happen in that region and it would have appeared to anyone in that basin at the time that the whole world was gone.
 
Re: Bill Nye the Science Guy to debate Creation museum founder Ken Ham[W:164]

I'm not reinterpreting Genesis, I have never said that the text is 100% factual, I am simply pointing out that statements like "the flood didn't happen" are just as closed minded as people here claim Christians are. A massive flood DID happen in that region and it would have appeared to anyone in that basin at the time that the whole world was gone.

And there is evidence the flood story predates Genesis Noah's Ark Was Round, Based On 4,000-Year-Old Mesopotamian Instructions That Are 'Mathematically Accurate' - International Science Times
 
Re: Bill Nye the Science Guy to debate Creation museum founder Ken Ham[W:164]

I'm not reinterpreting Genesis, I have never said that the text is 100% factual, I am simply pointing out that statements like "the flood didn't happen" are just as closed minded as people here claim Christians are. A massive flood DID happen in that region and it would have appeared to anyone in that basin at the time that the whole world was gone.

The flood, as clearly described in the Bible, did not happen. People have been trying to change the meaning of the flood in Genesis to match a number of local floods, in hopes of making it mean something, but honestly, the whole purpose of the flood is nullified if it's just a local flood. Why kill the wicked people in a tiny area when people from surrounding areas who are just as evil can walk in immediately after the flood?
 
Re: Bill Nye the Science Guy to debate Creation museum founder Ken Ham[W:164]

The problem with creationism is what happens when you ask a question that you don't know the answer to. Creationists say "well the Bible says .... " and that's it. There's no reason for further inquiry. Look at the sun, the Bible says it goes around the Earth; why look further? The Bible says that God created all the animals. Why look any deeper?

Again, this is flatly false. Human history is filled with people who believed in God and still managed to study how the universe works and dri9ve human understanding forward. Continually stating ignorant gross generalizations of large groups of people only serves to display your own intellectual blindfold.

The subjects are different, but the idea is the same. Creationism teaches kids to stop asking why when they ask a question no one can answer.

No it doesn't.

Science says look further.

Creationism doesn't say stop studying science no matter how much you seem to want it to. Creationism really only attempts to answer "Why" and says nothing of "How". The only people that really have a problem with Creationism or Science are those who are desperate to use religion or science to discredit the other. They are both misguided and have their own set of blind spots.

In all honesty the group I have seen to have more willingness to abandon scientific principles than any other today are those who wish to use science to achieve political goals.
 
Re: Bill Nye the Science Guy to debate Creation museum founder Ken Ham[W:164]

Does anyone assert that the great flood happened in 2000 BC?

I'm sure some where someone does. Just like people assert the entire world was flooded.
 
Re: Bill Nye the Science Guy to debate Creation museum founder Ken Ham[W:164]

The flood, as clearly described in the Bible, did not happen. People have been trying to change the meaning of the flood in Genesis to match a number of local floods, in hopes of making it mean something, but honestly, the whole purpose of the flood is nullified if it's just a local flood. Why kill the wicked people in a tiny area when people from surrounding areas who are just as evil can walk in immediately after the flood?

Having never argued that the Bible is 100% factual I am not sure why so many people insist on arguing things I did not say.

I would like to point out, though that the term used for "Earth" in the original text of Genesis is "eres" which actually can mean everything from the entire planet, to all dry land, to a geographical region, to dirt. So essentially your argument depends on the meaning intended by the original author. At best you can argue that the common interpretation of Genesis is wrong.
 
Re: Bill Nye the Science Guy to debate Creation museum founder Ken Ham[W:164]

Again, this is flatly false. Human history is filled with people who believed in God and still managed to study how the universe works and dri9ve human understanding forward. Continually stating ignorant gross generalizations of large groups of people only serves to display your own intellectual blindfold.



No it doesn't.



Creationism doesn't say stop studying science no matter how much you seem to want it to. Creationism really only attempts to answer "Why" and says nothing of "How". The only people that really have a problem with Creationism or Science are those who are desperate to use religion or science to discredit the other. They are both misguided and have their own set of blind spots.

In all honesty the group I have seen to have more willingness to abandon scientific principles than any other today are those who wish to use science to achieve political goals.

Why do you equate a belief in God with creationism?
 
Re: Bill Nye the Science Guy to debate Creation museum founder Ken Ham[W:164]

I'm guessing you missed the bit about the taxonomy and carbon dating of the fossils on the sea bed to determine the geological history of the Black Sea, and the discovery that the sea was once a smaller fresh water lake, lending credence to the theory that the great flood actually did happen? You probably also missed the fact that the study found evidence of ancient buildings 95m under water?

None of this would have been found had we chosen to write off Genesis as entirely mythical.



I question the ability of someone to think clearly who fails to read a whole article before passing judgement on it.

No one is arguing that Genesis is entirely a fantasy, all tribal myths generally have some sort of historical basis. Given the number of ancient middle eastern cultures that have a tribal myth about a flood, more than likely one did occur. It certainly was not a worldwide flood where all animals were loaded upon a great Ark though. Floods have happened throughout history, this one is no different.
 
Re: Bill Nye the Science Guy to debate Creation museum founder Ken Ham[W:164]

I'm guessing you missed the bit about the taxonomy and carbon dating of the fossils on the sea bed to determine the geological history of the Black Sea, and the discovery that the sea was once a smaller fresh water lake, lending credence to the theory that the great flood actually did happen? You probably also missed the fact that the study found evidence of ancient buildings 95m under water?

None of this would have been found had we chosen to write off Genesis as entirely mythical.



I question the ability of someone to think clearly who fails to read a whole article before passing judgement on it.

It was clearly not a global flood, which science disproves quite nicely. There's no room for interpretation here, Genesis says it was a global flood. And yes, actually, people would have figured out that the Black Sea flooded thousands of years ago even without Genesis.

A different quote from genesis uses a phrase that translates to "upon the face of all the earth," much more clearly indicating a global flood.

"upon the face of all the earth" Ìal-penê kol-haÉares (Genesis 7:3; 8:9)

A later part says something about "all of existence" being destroyed, which seems pretty clear.

At least, according to these folks, which Answers in Genesis linked me to. I'm obviously not a biblical scholar.
http://www.grisda.org/origins/22058.htm
 
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Re: Bill Nye the Science Guy to debate Creation museum founder Ken Ham[W:164]

The best part of this entire ordeal is that the atheist evolutionists are getting completely wrapped around the axle about this. The debate isn't even a blip on my radar.
 
Re: Bill Nye the Science Guy to debate Creation museum founder Ken Ham[W:164]

Does anyone assert that the great flood happened in 2000 BC?
So what ..there was a local flood...
There wasn't any magic...
 
Re: Bill Nye the Science Guy to debate Creation museum founder Ken Ham[W:164]

Having never argued that the Bible is 100% factual I am not sure why so many people insist on arguing things I did not say.

So what percentage of the Bible do you think is factual? Do you just pick and choose?

I would like to point out, though that the term used for "Earth" in the original text of Genesis is "eres" which actually can mean everything from the entire planet, to all dry land, to a geographical region, to dirt. So essentially your argument depends on the meaning intended by the original author. At best you can argue that the common interpretation of Genesis is wrong.

The early Hebrews had no clue about the larger universe, they didn't know that there was anything farther away than the moon, they thought all the stars were hung on the inside of a dome over a flat earth. There really is no way to justify any of these beliefs, if the whole Hebrew concept is wrong, how can you think any of it is right?
 
Re: Bill Nye the Science Guy to debate Creation museum founder Ken Ham[W:164]

I agree with you. If I had been in the debate, I would have let go with a string of invectives pretty much every time Ham opened his mouth. What comes out of the mouths of creationists is complete and total %$^@$. They deserve to be called on it.

Ham didn't choose intellectual giants like Dawkins or Hawking because they would have mopped the floor with his face made him look an inch tall. Nye was chosen because he is a lightweight who wants people to reach their own conclusions on what is most reasonable without exposing his opponent's ignorance and in the most diplomatic way possible.
 
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Re: Bill Nye the Science Guy to debate Creation museum founder Ken Ham[W:164]

So what percentage of the Bible do you think is factual? Do you just pick and choose?

I'm somewhere between the fundamentalist "all of it!" and your "None of it!". I don't trouble myself with percentages because that really isn't the point of faith.

The early Hebrews had no clue about the larger universe, they didn't know that there was anything farther away than the moon, they thought all the stars were hung on the inside of a dome over a flat earth. There really is no way to justify any of these beliefs, if the whole Hebrew concept is wrong, how can you think any of it is right?

I have already spoken at length about this. You are certainly displaying a rather closed mind on the subject, though. All is true or none is true? Yes, very open minded of you. I am simply pointing out that arguing the factual nature of the great flood is not as black and white as you make it given the nature of critical words in the ancient text.
 
Re: Bill Nye the Science Guy to debate Creation museum founder Ken Ham[W:164]

So what ..there was a local flood...
There wasn't any magic...

Another bit of semantics here: The universe and all we know is said to be part of God and his creation. God can't do magic because any act of God, by definition, is natural.
 
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