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Thread: Bill Nye the Science Guy to debate Creation museum founder Ken Ham[W:164, 712]

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    Re: Bill Nye the Science Guy to debate Creation museum founder Ken Ham[W:164]

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger View Post
    I won't disagree with any of that. Unfortunately most 15 year olds are not capable of making those differentiations.
    I don't agree. When I was in high school being able to differentiate those three concepts was not difficult. However, if you do think 15 year olds are confused now, just wait til you start teaching them creationism and evolution as equally valid scientific theories.

    IF these scientific theories (big bang and abiogenesis) could be proven beyond a reasonable doubt It would be one thing but considering that they cannot be proven I find it to be rather impolite that they are taught as if no other option is possible.
    Abiogenesis is an extremely broad theory with multiple explanations for it, and as yet there is no single consensus on which one (if any) it might be. Some successful experiments have been conducted in a lab replicating the environmental conditions of the earth from when abiogenesis is thought to have begun, but to my knowledge that's the extent of it. The details of the big bang are also not settled, but it is known that the universe expanded from a single point -- that much is settled.

    That's what most religious people have am issue with.
    Religious people have an issue with matters of science they believe threaten their faith. That's not my problem and I can't help them with that.

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    Re: Bill Nye the Science Guy to debate Creation museum founder Ken Ham[W:164]

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    Informally, sure, it's natural when talking about the evolution of the species to also want to talk about the origin of the species. Formally and scientifically, they're different fields, every bit as different as abiogenesis is from the Big Bang.
    except that we do know how evolution works (in general) but we have no idea how live was created on earth. Most often biology will not talk about that side of the issue (where I live) but only talked about the here and now of biology and how we as human got where we have through evolution.

    If someone wants to discuss the origins of how life started here on earth they should do so in religious studies and not in scientific studies.
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    Bill Nye the Science Guy to debate Creation museum founder Ken Ham[W:164]

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger View Post
    1)You don't know what evolution is so you're not qualified to say where evolution is or isn't proven.
    I know quite well what it is. I also know it's not provable beyond a reasonable doubt.
    Then you don't know anything about it.

    There are many scientific theories that we may have reasonable doubt about. The evidence for evolution is overwhelming. There really is no doubt among biologists whatsoever. The success of molecular Biology removes ALL doubt about Evolution.
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    Re: Bill Nye the Science Guy to debate Creation museum founder Ken Ham[W:164]

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter King View Post
    except that we do know how evolution works (in general) but we have no idea how live was created on earth. Most often biology will not talk about that side of the issue (where I live) but only talked about the here and now of biology and how we as human got where we have through evolution.

    If someone wants to discuss the origins of how life started here on earth they should do so in religious studies and not in scientific studies.
    There are competing scientific theories with scientific evidence.
    There are several competing religious theories without scientific evidence.
    The key word is 'scientific'. If the evidence for a religion's theory is not based in science then the various religious creation theories has no business being taught in a science classroom. If the evidence is only religious in nature, then the theories have no business being taught in public schools.

    Many christians seem to think they are the only option out there. If one faith is allowed into schools, all faiths have to be allowed. Faced with competing faiths, are christians willing to allow other religious theories to be taught along side their own in public schools? And let their children decide which religious creation theory to accept? It would be fun to watch that screamfest aka debate!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Christenot
    I was prompted to write and comment after reading the story on the New Jersey football coach that resigned because he was prohibited from leading his team in pre-game prayers.

    Let me start by saying I am an evangelical Christian and have pretty hard-core beliefs about the rights of individuals, particularly students, to express their faith, to include religious themes in their school work, to perform Christian-themed music and dramas during school talent events, etc. If a school administrator had ever tried to stop one of my kids from carrying a Bible, participating in voluntary prayer, or openly discussing their faith with another student, I would have sued him back in to the Stone Age.

    You might be surprised then to learn that I am adamantly opposed to teachers and other school officials leading students in prayer or the conduct of prayer rituals, even by students, at officially sanctioned events. Why would I take a position that is seemingly so at odds with my core beliefs?

    Throughout the vast majority of the United States, most religious practices and beliefs are rooted in a traditional Judeo-Christian belief system. As such, prayers conducted before a football game or at a graduation ceremony, even if so bland and non-proselytizing as to be meaningless, are generally offered in the context of the traditional Jehovah God of the Old and New Testament. However, that is not the case in all corners of our nation.

    I had the privilege of serving our nation’s Air Force while assigned to Hickam Air Force Base on the beautiful island of Oahu in the beautiful state of Hawaii. Because of the arrangement of military housing in that location, my family and I actually lived not at Hickam near the Honolulu metropolitan area, but at Wheeler Air Force Base in the central part of the island just out side of the small pineapple-farming town of Wahiawa. In Wahiawa we found a small Baptist church that met our family’s needs. However, Christians and others from various Judeo-Christian traditions were in the very distinct minority in this little village that was populated predominantly by people of Japanese and Chinese ancestry. Rather than a church on every corner, as is common in the continental 48 states, Wahiawa had a Shinto or Buddhist shrine on every corner.

    Because we worked in the youth department of our church and taught teenage Sunday School classes, we were anxious to be involved in the lives of the students we worked with. So we were quite excited to be able to attend our first football game at Wahiawa High School. Upon our arrival at the stadium it seemed like so many other high school athletic events we had been to in many other places. The teams were warming up, the band was gathering, the ROTC was preparing to raise the colors – a pretty typical fall ritual.

    Coming from a fairly traditional Southern upbringing, I was not at all initially surprised when a voice came over the PA and asked everyone to rise for the invocation. I had been through this same ritual at many other high-school events and thought nothing of it, so to our feet my wife and I stood, bowed our heads, and prepared to partake of the prayer. But to our extreme dismay, the clergyman who took the microphone and began to pray was not a Protestant minister or a Catholic priest, but a Buddhist priest who proceeded to offer up prayers and intonations to god-head figures that our tradition held to be pagan.

    We were frozen in shock and incredulity! What to do? To continue to stand and observe this prayer would represent a betrayal of our own faith and imply the honoring of a pagan deity that was anathema to our beliefs. To sit would be an act of extreme rudeness and disrespect in the eyes of our Japanese hosts and neighbors, who value above all other things deference and respect in their social interactions. I am sorry to say that in the confusion of the moment we chose the easier path and elected to continue to stand in silence so as not to create a scene or ill will among those who were seated nearby.

    [...]

    Gary Christenot
    Why I’m against pre-game prayers
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    Re: Bill Nye the Science Guy to debate Creation museum founder Ken Ham[W:164]

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    I don't agree. When I was in high school being able to differentiate those three concepts was not difficult. However, if you do think 15 year olds are confused now, just wait til you start teaching them creationism and evolution as equally valid scientific theories.
    I don't believe most high school students have the same level of intellect or understanding that even I had in the early 1990. I wouldn't teach creation in schools. What I would do us to teach the scientific theories on the beginning of the world as theories instead if as the only acceptable option in the discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    Abiogenesis is an extremely broad theory with multiple explanations for it, and as yet there is no single consensus on which one (if any) it might be. Some successful experiments have been conducted in a lab replicating the environmental conditions of the earth from when abiogenesis is thought to have begun, but to my knowledge that's the extent of it. The details of the big bang are also not settled, but it is known that the universe expanded from a single point -- that much is settled.
    The problem is that you will not generally hear those qualifiers in a high school biology or earth science class.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    Religious people have an issue with matters of science they believe threaten their faith. That's not my problem and I can't help them with that.
    True. However you (or at least the school departments) can choose not to wave a red flag in front of the bull by suggesting there are no alternatives.

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    Re: Bill Nye the Science Guy to debate Creation museum founder Ken Ham[W:164]

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger View Post
    I don't believe most high school students have the same level of intellect or understanding that even I had in the early 1990. I wouldn't teach creation in schools. What I would do us to teach the scientific theories on the beginning of the world as theories instead if as the only acceptable option in the discussion.



    The problem is that you will not generally hear those qualifiers in a high school biology or earth science class.



    True. However you (or at least the school departments) can choose not to wave a red flag in front of the bull by suggesting there are no alternatives.
    I know more than you about evolution. At least human evolution. Evolution is a scientific fact and is unanimously accepted as such in the scientific community, with something like 99.8% of biologists agreeing. What you are thinking of is Darwin's Theory of Natural Selection.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger View Post
    I don't want a "comprehension of science"
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    Re: Bill Nye the Science Guy to debate Creation museum founder Ken Ham[W:164]

    Quote Originally Posted by Fallenangel View Post
    As long as there the unc. principle is universally true vacuum has energy, meaning that it has properties, etc;
    a. This means that it isn't "nothing" as you defined it previously.
    b. The mechanism to why exactly it has energy can not be simply answered with "Because of the unc. principle and it always has" - mostly because we do not fully understand this mechanism till this day.
    c. The following creationist question would be "Where it came from? (i.e the unc. principle) and "Why it acts the way it is and not in other ways?"

    You see, eventually we get to a point where one would need to answer questions regarding the basic laws that govern the quantum world which probably "sparked" our Universe into existence, and so far we do not fully understand them, and can not be sure of why they appear exactly as they are. (It might be that there are other universes with different vacuum properties, energy and etc.)

    Cheers,
    Fallen.
    Why does gravity act the way it is and not in other ways? Uncertainty and vacuum fluctuations certainly have been theorized to be the cause of the Big Bang, but it's just a theory at this point. Vacuum energy does arise from various dynamics, not all well understood. But that doesn't mean that the absence of particles from a volume (which is what a vacuum would be) would innately have that energy. Vacuum energy is the background energy of the universe essentially. It's not born of vacuum, but permeates it all. And if there were multiple universes, and those universes had different fundamental constants then it is quite conceivable that they would measure a different vacuum energy since the physical processes that contribute to the vacuum energy could also be slightly different.

    The Gods Themselves by Asimov sort of addresses that. Well perhaps not vacuum energy, but a multiverse where within each universe the fundamental constants were slightly different.
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    Re: Bill Nye the Science Guy to debate Creation museum founder Ken Ham[W:164]

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger View Post
    I don't believe most high school students have the same level of intellect or understanding that even I had in the early 1990.
    All I can tell you is I have a houseful of high school students in my home right now, and every one of them would eviscerate your understanding of evolution.

    These guys are learning biological concepts that I learned in college. I'm reading their textbooks just to keep up - and I do science for a living!
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    Re: Bill Nye the Science Guy to debate Creation museum founder Ken Ham[W:164]

    Quote Originally Posted by Threegoofs View Post
    All I can tell you is I have a houseful of high school students in my home right now, and every one of them would eviscerate your understanding of evolution.

    These guys are learning biological concepts that I learned in college. I'm reading their textbooks just to keep up - and I do science for a living!
    I have a brother and his wife who both have PhD's in Genetic Microbiology. I don't claim to know all that much about that sort of stuff. It has no use in my work, my beliefs or any other part of my life.

    I find few college grads I'd hire to dig a ditch for me. Fewer high school students. Your kids might be the exception but I tend to doubt it, nothing personal.

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    Re: Bill Nye the Science Guy to debate Creation museum founder Ken Ham[W:164]

    Quote Originally Posted by ethanUNC View Post
    I know more than you about evolution. At least human evolution. Evolution is a scientific fact and is unanimously accepted as such in the scientific community, with something like 99.8% of biologists agreeing. What you are thinking of is Darwin's Theory of Natural Selection.
    So you can PROVE BEYOND ANY REASONABLE DOUBT that human beings evolved from other lesser primates? That would be quite something to see.

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