Bill Nye the Science Guy to debate Creation museum founder Ken Ham[W:164, 712]

Re: Bill Nye the Science Guy to debate Creation museum founder Ken Ham[W:164]

Jetboogieman said:

Extreme right already losing it lol

Essay:Lessons from Ham-Nye Debate - Conservapedia



:lamo

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Thanks for the entertaining link.

Someone there seems to have missed a very glaring detail regarding complexity and the second law of thermodynamics.

"Bill Nye insisted that "evolution is a process that adds complexity" - even though that is contrary to the Second Law of Thermodynamics, which Bill Nye admitted is an absolute truth without contradiction."

Apparently they are not that bright.. no gold star for this stellar example of being oblivious to the light shining directly in their face. The blindness.. it burns!

edit: wow! talk about living in a cave: "he seemed unaware that the vast majority of people do not watch the Super Bowl..."

Re: Bill Nye the Science Guy to debate Creation museum founder Ken Ham[W:164]

Cephus said:

Which is absolutely true, that's why the whole day-age nonsense is just that, nonsense. Since we know the universe was not created in 6 literal days, that also makes the YEC's beliefs complete nonsense. So now that we've established that the Biblical creation story is crap, now what?

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We've established no such thing. So now what? Nothing, that's what. Nothing has changed.

Re: Bill Nye the Science Guy to debate Creation museum founder Ken Ham[W:164]

Jerry said:

We've established no such thing. So now what? Nothing, that's what. Nothing has changed.

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You already acknowledged that the Bible does not support a day-age interpretation, the Hebrew is very specific about what it means and since science completely and totally discredits a 6-day creation, then we have completely established that the Bible is a steaming pile of crap with regards to it's creation claims.

Whether or not you acknowledge reality is irrelevant.

Re: Bill Nye the Science Guy to debate Creation museum founder Ken Ham[W:164]

Cephus said:

You already acknowledged that the Bible does not support a day-age interpretation....

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I never said any such thing :2wave:

Re: Bill Nye the Science Guy to debate Creation museum founder Ken Ham[W:164]

Jerry said:

I never said any such thing :2wave:

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Wasn't it you that said that the Hebrew word used, "yom", only referred to literal 24-hour days?

Re: Bill Nye the Science Guy to debate Creation museum founder Ken Ham[W:164]

I watched part of it. As a Chrisian, here's my view ---- I don't really care how old the Earth is, nor do I think it really matters in terms of spirituality. I do not believe in a literal interpretation of Scripture and I do think many of the stories in the OT are fables. The "mystery," as Nye kept saying, is how the original matter and consciousness came to be. I found the parts that I watched to be very interesting (although I tuned in in the middle of Nye's argument and it seemed to go on and on forever).

Re: Bill Nye the Science Guy to debate Creation museum founder Ken Ham[W:164]

I've no problem with anyone's religion. More power to you. However it's the Ken Ham's and Kent Hovind's that give religious folks with reason and have no problem accepting reality along with their spiritual beliefs a bad name. These biblical literalist, YEC's are a bunch of willfully ignorant yayhoo's

Re: Bill Nye the Science Guy to debate Creation museum founder Ken Ham[W:164]

Jerry said:

Everything evolves, even religion.

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Exactly, especially creationist rationalizations.

You start with an unshakable idea, the bible is 100% true. You add "proof": (2 Timothy 3:16). the bible says it's 100% true, and because it's 100% true it must be 100% true.

Then you start to read it, and you come across a passage like
There's no mention of earthquakes or people falling down, so God is obviously revealing his divine design through Isaiah and Joshua. God is telling us that the sun orbits the earth. He didn't just mention this once, he mentioned it twice. God doesn't lie. People who disagree are evil and must be burnt.

The Church didn't resolve Galileo of wrongdoing until 1992! Think about that. Men were walking on the surface of the moon, taking pictures like this: and the Church still refused to admit that they were wrong.


Now creationists by in large ignore these passages. They were important enough to the veracity of Christianity to torture and murder people before, but now it's just not that big of a deal. Either God used magic to inertially shield everyone on Earth, or these are just poetic versus that shouldn't be taken as literal truth. Or whatever, don't think to hard about it. We like having GPS so planetary physics is acceptable science.

Instead, the real problem is "Evilution". The Bible clearly states that God created the Earth in 6 DAYS... Oh... that doesn't work?? Shoot... hmmm..... Did I say days? I meant ERAS.


The problem with Religion masquerading as science is that Religion already knows the answer. There's no room for intellectual pursuits. There's no place for debate. Don't challenge what we know, we already know it. Why are you trying to cause other people to doubt? Is your faith too weak? Don't let the devil gain a foothold!

We have people spending their lives in intellectual pursuits, measuring things, making predictions, defending their ideas. On the other hand we have people like Mr Hamm who teach that his interpretation of a verse from a 3000 year old manuscript is more reliable than lifetimes of research. Science is "brainwashing".

What are we doing to our kids? Is it any wonder that our education system is failing when children are taught to supplant critical thinking with religious dogma?

Re: Bill Nye the Science Guy to debate Creation museum founder Ken Ham[W:164]

Re: Bill Nye the Science Guy to debate Creation museum founder Ken Ham[W:164]

Josie said:

I watched part of it. As a Chrisian, here's my view ---- I don't really care how old the Earth is, nor do I think it really matters in terms of spirituality. I do not believe in a literal interpretation of Scripture and I do think many of the stories in the OT are fables. The "mystery," as Nye kept saying, is how the original matter and consciousness came to be. I found the parts that I watched to be very interesting (although I tuned in in the middle of Nye's argument and it seemed to go on and on forever).

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These are my thoughts as well. It always puzzles me when YECs and militant atheists go at it as if there is no actual middle ground. Science and Religion are not designed to answer the questions posed by the other and people who try to use science to disprove God are just as misguided as those who try to use scripture to establish the age of the Earth.

I do find a lot that is of interest in the book of Genesis as one of the oldest stories ever recorded, and in it is a lot to be learned about really the dawn of human civilization.

I've mentioned it here before, but it is worth saying again: YEC scholarship is not as easily disregarded as many seem to think, even if their eventual conclusions are (because their biblical scholarship tries, in the end to impose scripture on science.. see my first point). But ignoring the "and therefore that is when the Earth was made" part, it is compelling to see that the Genesis story, if tallied chronologically, puts Adam and Eve's genesis smack in the middle of the birth of human civilization. When you look at it in that light, Genesis, for me, becomes extremely poignant.

This is a story, written at a time when man was leaving his largely animalistic past and beginning the application of his vast reasoning abilities towards civilization. Today, for me at least, I can't help but see the lives of the more remote tribes of humans who still live at that cusp between civilization purely natural existence and how content they seem to be. The film THE GOD'S MUST BE CRAZY deals with this well, I think, in a funny way. But the story of Genisis and Adam and Eve is a story that imparts that same regret of our oldest civilizations for having taken that next step towards civilization. The Greek story of Pandora does this as well, but it came thousands of years after the Genesis story was already being commonly taught.

Also very interesting to me is the simple fact that so much of the Genesis creation story up to Adam can loosely be tied to what we currently believe about the formation of the Universe itself. "Let there be light" is the big bang, followed by a "formless void" from which matter was formed, and coalesced into planets, and so on.

Of all the creation stories of all the religions in all the world, those that draw from Genesis are easily the most accurate in their order wording even after discounting the idea of an Intelligent Designer being the drive of each stage of creation.

Re: Bill Nye the Science Guy to debate Creation museum founder Ken Ham[W:164]

Mithros said:

Exactly, especially creationist rationalizations.

You start with an unshakable idea, the bible is 100% true. You add "proof": (2 Timothy 3:16). the bible says it's 100% true, and because it's 100% true it must be 100% true.

Then you start to read it, and you come across a passage like

Isaiah 38:8: I will make the shadow cast by the sun go back the ten steps it has gone down on the stairway of Ahaz.'" So the sunlight went back the ten steps it had gone down.
Joshua 10:12-14: On the day the Lord gave the Amorites over to Israel, Joshua said to the Lord in the presence of Israel: “Sun, stand still over Gibeon, and you, moon, over the Valley of Aijalon.”[SUP] 13 [/SUP]So the sun stood still, and the moon stopped,till the nation avenged itself on[SUP][a][/SUP] its enemies, as it is written in the Book of Jashar.

​

There's no mention of earthquakes or people falling down, so God is obviously revealing his divine design through Isaiah and Joshua. God is telling us that the sun orbits the earth. He didn't just mention this once, he mentioned it twice. God doesn't lie. People who disagree are evil and must be burnt.

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So tell me, when someone asks you if you saw the sunrise do you shout them down for insinuation that the sun revolves around the Earth? Our language regarding the motion of the sun has always been with regard to its motion in the sky, even today.

Re: Bill Nye the Science Guy to debate Creation museum founder Ken Ham[W:164]

jmotivator said:

These are my thoughts as well. It always puzzles me when YECs and militant atheists go at it as if there is no actual middle ground. Science and Religion are not designed to answer the questions posed by the other and people who try to use science to disprove God are just as misguided as those who try to use scripture to establish the age of the Earth.

I do find a lot that is of interest in the book of Genesis as one of the oldest stories ever recorded, and in it is a lot to be learned about really the dawn of human civilization.

I've mentioned it here before, but it is worth saying again: YEC scholarship is not as easily disregarded as many seem to think, even if their eventual conclusions are (because their biblical scholarship tries, in the end to impose scripture on science.. see my first point). But ignoring the "and therefore that is when the Earth was made" part, it is compelling to see that the Genesis story, if tallied chronologically, puts Adam and Eve's genesis smack in the middle of the birth of human civilization. When you look at it in that light, Genesis, for me, becomes extremely poignant.

This is a story, written at a time when man was leaving his largely animalistic past and beginning the application of his vast reasoning abilities towards civilization. Today, for me at least, I can't help but see the lives of the more remote tribes of humans who still live at that cusp between civilization purely natural existence and how content they seem to be. The film THE GOD'S MUST BE CRAZY deals with this well, I think, in a funny way. But the story of Genisis and Adam and Eve is a story that imparts that same regret of our oldest civilizations for having taken that next step towards civilization. The Greek story of Pandora does this as well, but it came thousands of years after the Genesis story was already being commonly taught.

Also very interesting to me is the simple fact that so much of the Genesis creation story up to Adam can loosely be tied to what we currently believe about the formation of the Universe itself. "Let there be light" is the big bang, followed by a "formless void" from which matter was formed, and coalesced into planets, and so on.

Of all the creation stories of all the religions in all the world, those that draw from Genesis are easily the most accurate in their order wording even after discounting the idea of an Intelligent Designer being the drive of each stage of creation.

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Just because an ambiguous book of parables is ancient does not make it an authority in fields of science.

Re: Bill Nye the Science Guy to debate Creation museum founder Ken Ham[W:164]

HenryChinaski said:

Just because an ambiguous book of parables is ancient does not make it an authority in fields of science.

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Thank you for your continued dedication to not reading my posts. I would be much obliged if you would return to your previously successful pattern of not responding to them as well.

Re: Bill Nye the Science Guy to debate Creation museum founder Ken Ham[W:164]

"Lets all make excuses for the bible now".

Re: Bill Nye the Science Guy to debate Creation museum founder Ken Ham[W:164]

jmotivator said:

So tell me, when someone asks you if you saw the sunrise do you shout them down for insinuation that the sun revolves around the Earth? Our language regarding the motion of the sun has always been with regard to its motion in the sky, even today.

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Giordano Bruno was burnt at the stake for claiming that the Earth orbits the Sun. He was tied to a pole and set on fire. Think about what it must have been like to be tied to a pole, waiting to be set on fire. First he felt the heat, and coughed as the smoke entered his lungs. Then he saw the flames lick up from the dried wood as the heat turned to searing pain. Think about the terror he must have felt as the flames started to blister his calves and feet. Maybe he was fortunate, and spent only a handful of few minutes choking and screaming before he died of asphyxiation. Maybe he lingered, and had to feel his thighs, hands, torso, forarms, chest and face consumed by the flames. Maybe the last thing he heard, long after his vocal cords were charred husks of flesh, was the sound of his body sizzling and popping like a steak on a hot griddle. Sometimes it took as long as two hours to die from blood-loss, shock, and organ failure.

To date, the Church has never apologized for this travesty.

But hey, sorry for jumping down your throat. Creationists don't care about that passage anymore. They're clearly the victim.

Re: Bill Nye the Science Guy to debate Creation museum founder Ken Ham[W:164]

marduc said:

Thanks for the entertaining link.

Someone there seems to have missed a very glaring detail regarding complexity and the second law of thermodynamics.

"Bill Nye insisted that "evolution is a process that adds complexity" - even though that is contrary to the Second Law of Thermodynamics, which Bill Nye admitted is an absolute truth without contradiction."

Apparently they are not that bright.. no gold star for this stellar example of being oblivious to the light shining directly in their face. The blindness.. it burns!

edit: wow! talk about living in a cave: "he seemed unaware that the vast majority of people do not watch the Super Bowl..."

Click to expand...

Th idea that evolution violates thermodynamics is so beyond stupid that I could weep for humanity.

Re: Bill Nye the Science Guy to debate Creation museum founder Ken Ham[W:164]

Mithros said:

Giordano Bruno was burnt at the stake for claiming that the Earth orbits the Sun. He was tied to a pole and set on fire. Think about what it must have been like to be tied to a pole, waiting to be set on fire. First he felt the heat, and coughed as the smoke entered his lungs. Then he saw the flames lick up from the dried wood as the heat turned to searing pain. Think about the terror he must have felt as the flames started to blister his calves and feet. Maybe he was fortunate, and spent only a handful of few minutes choking and screaming before he died of asphyxiation. Maybe he lingered, and had to feel his thighs, hands, torso, forarms, chest and face burn. Maybe he had to listen as his body sizzled and popped like a steak on a hot griddle. Sometimes it took as long as two hours to die from blood-loss, shock, and organ failure.

To date, the Church has never apologized for this travesty.

But hey, sorry for jumping down your throat. Creationists are clearly the victim here.

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Hah, nice appeal to emotions, but it doesn't answer my question (surprise, surprise). :roll:

As a side question, are you still waiting for an apology from Mongolia for the actions of Attila the Hun?

Re: Bill Nye the Science Guy to debate Creation museum founder Ken Ham[W:164]

jmotivator said:

YEC scholarship is not as easily disregarded as many seem to think, .

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Funny because I saw it disregarded pretty easily last night.

Re: Bill Nye the Science Guy to debate Creation museum founder Ken Ham[W:164]

jmotivator said:

These are my thoughts as well. It always puzzles me when YECs and militant atheists go at it as if there is no actual middle ground. Science and Religion are not designed to answer the questions posed by the other and people who try to use science to disprove God are just as misguided as those who try to use scripture to establish the age of the Earth.

I do find a lot that is of interest in the book of Genesis as one of the oldest stories ever recorded, and in it is a lot to be learned about really the dawn of human civilization.

I've mentioned it here before, but it is worth saying again: YEC scholarship is not as easily disregarded as many seem to think, even if their eventual conclusions are (because their biblical scholarship tries, in the end to impose scripture on science.. see my first point). But ignoring the "and therefore that is when the Earth was made" part, it is compelling to see that the Genesis story, if tallied chronologically, puts Adam and Eve's genesis smack in the middle of the birth of human civilization. When you look at it in that light, Genesis, for me, becomes extremely poignant.

This is a story, written at a time when man was leaving his largely animalistic past and beginning the application of his vast reasoning abilities towards civilization. Today, for me at least, I can't help but see the lives of the more remote tribes of humans who still live at that cusp between civilization purely natural existence and how content they seem to be. The film THE GOD'S MUST BE CRAZY deals with this well, I think, in a funny way. But the story of Genisis and Adam and Eve is a story that imparts that same regret of our oldest civilizations for having taken that next step towards civilization. The Greek story of Pandora does this as well, but it came thousands of years after the Genesis story was already being commonly taught.

Also very interesting to me is the simple fact that so much of the Genesis creation story up to Adam can loosely be tied to what we currently believe about the formation of the Universe itself. "Let there be light" is the big bang, followed by a "formless void" from which matter was formed, and coalesced into planets, and so on.

Of all the creation stories of all the religions in all the world, those that draw from Genesis are easily the most accurate in their order wording even after discounting the idea of an Intelligent Designer being the drive of each stage of creation.

Click to expand...

No, genesis is not nearly as accurate as you present. Human civilization was around for longer, and widespread, long before that timeframe. The creation story of seven days is way out of order. The global flood never happened. What you are doing is retroactively applying biblical stories to try and shoehorn them into science

Re: Bill Nye the Science Guy to debate Creation museum founder Ken Ham[W:164]

jmotivator said:

I do find a lot that is of interest in the book of Genesis as one of the oldest stories ever recorded, and in it is a lot to be learned about really the dawn of human civilization.

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I'm sorry, but what? Genesis was written 900 BCE at the earliest. Human stories and writing goes back to the 4th millennium BCE. You just lopped off 3,000+ years of written human history.

The Semantic people that produced the Bible aren't even close to the dawn of human civilization.

jmotivator said:

But ignoring the "and therefore that is when the Earth was made" part, it is compelling to see that the Genesis story, if tallied chronologically, puts Adam and Eve's genesis smack in the middle of the birth of human civilization. When you look at it in that light, Genesis, for me, becomes extremely poignant.

This is a story, written at a time when man was leaving his largely animalistic past and beginning the application of his vast reasoning abilities towards civilization. Today, for me at least, I can't help but see the lives of the more remote tribes of humans who still live at that cusp between civilization purely natural existence and how content they seem to be. The film THE GOD'S MUST BE CRAZY deals with this well, I think, in a funny way. But the story of Genisis and Adam and Eve is a story that imparts that same regret of our oldest civilizations for having taken that next step towards civilization. The Greek story of Pandora does this as well, but it came thousands of years after the Genesis story was already being commonly taught.

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The New Kingdom of Egypt stretched from Sudan to modern day Turkey from 1550 BCE – 1077 BCE. It, the Hittite and Mycenaean Empires collapsed during the Late Bronze Age collapse, a "mini" dark age in human history, and the absence of regional warring powers allowed for the 12 tribes of Israel to spawn, which coalesced and then split to form the Kingdoms of Israel and Judea. The Israelites were by no means anywhere close to the "cusp of civilization" ... and far greater empires and civilizations existed and died thousands of years before any of the Semitic civilizations.

The only difference is that the Israelites thought in their oral stories that these 12 tribes came from Jacob's ("father Israel") 12 children, which isn't even true. The Israelites didn't even have the slightest of idea that they were once ruled by the Egyptians.

jmotivator said:

Also very interesting to me is the simple fact that so much of the Genesis creation story up to Adam can loosely be tied to what we currently believe about the formation of the Universe itself. "Let there be light" is the big bang, followed by a "formless void" from which matter was formed, and coalesced into planets, and so on.

Of all the creation stories of all the religions in all the world, those that draw from Genesis are easily the most accurate in their order wording even after discounting the idea of an Intelligent Designer being the drive of each stage of creation.

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No. "Let there be light" has nothing to do with the big bang.

Genesis is not even close to an early version of creation stories.

Re: Bill Nye the Science Guy to debate Creation museum founder Ken Ham[W:164]

HenryChinaski said:

View attachment 67161466

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Except it is the United States who's likely to be energy prosperous, have a colony on the Moon and significant orbital infrastructure, and on the cutting edge of scientific advances in 2050. In their rush for self-flagellation people are quick to ignore the fact that despite our creationists we are home to the largest and most sophisticated technology base with the greatest scientific institutions on the planet. I'm all for criticizing dim world views but I can't stand masochism.

Re: Bill Nye the Science Guy to debate Creation museum founder Ken Ham[W:164]

Hatuey said:

It sounds like 2 salesmen desperately trying to sell their product. Bill Nye is quite possibly the worst person they could have picked for this. So many eloquent advocates for scientific theory (Dawkins comes to mind).

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I don't think it could have remained civil with Dawkins.

Re: Bill Nye the Science Guy to debate Creation museum founder Ken Ham[W:164]

brothern said:

The Israelites didn't even have the slightest of idea that they were once ruled by the Egyptians.

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And don't go Moses on me either. That story shaped up in post-Exilic period when Judah was a province of the Persian empire circa 539 BCE – 332 BCE.

The Semitic speaking people never lived in modern day Egypt, and the Merneptah Stele is the only mention of Israel or Israelites in all of Ancient Egyptian history.

Re: Bill Nye the Science Guy to debate Creation museum founder Ken Ham[W:164]

Deuce said:

No, genesis is not nearly as accurate as you present. Human civilization was around for longer, and widespread, long before that timeframe. The creation story of seven days is way out of order. The global flood never happened. What you are doing is retroactively applying biblical stories to try and shoehorn them into science

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Wrong.

Civilization is thought to have begun between 10,000 BCe and 6500 BCE during the neolithic revolution. YEC puts the start of mankind at about 7000-8000 BCE, or in the middle of the neolithic revolution.

Also, the 7 days is not "way out of order" either. One day, day 3, is out of order and should be swapped with day 4. But given that this was being preserved by essentially a game of telephone for thousands of years I would expect that you can allow some errors in the retelling.

Re: Bill Nye the Science Guy to debate Creation museum founder Ken Ham[W:164]

jmotivator said:

Wrong.

Civilization is thought to have begun between 10,000 BCe and 6500 BCE during the neolithic revolution. YEC puts the start of mankind at about 7000-8000 BCE, or in the middle of the neolithic revolution.

Also, the 7 days is not "way out of order" either. One day, day 3, is out of order and should be swapped with day 4. But given that this was being preserved by essentially a game of telephone for thousands of years I would expect that you can allow some errors in the retelling.

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A game of telephone repeated over centuries eh? So then it's fair to say we can't take the Bible as literal since obviously if there is 1 telephone error there are likely more.