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I Was An NFL Player Until I Was Fired By Two Cowards And A Bigot[W:40]

Re: I Was An NFL Player Until I Was Fired By Two Cowards And A Bigot

Really? They were not just in favor of A&E suspending a person over their beliefs and personal opinion but rather foot stomping insistent, wouldnt you say?

No they were in favor of firing him.
 
Re: I Was An NFL Player Until I Was Fired By Two Cowards And A Bigot

Seeing as how he was "statistically the best kicker in Vikings history," I don't see it being performance-related.

Career stats aren't a useful indicator of year by year performance.

Jerry Rice was statistically the best receiver in NFL history. That doesn’t mean it wouldn’t have been reasonable for Oakland to cut him after the 2003 season when he’s 41, had less than 1000 yards receiving, and only 2 touchdowns.

Kluwe, OVER HIS CAREER, was the best kicker in Vikings history. Kluwe in 2012 was an average, at best, punter in the league. He was an average at best punter making with roughly a $1.5 million cap hit. Kluwe’s CAREER performance doesn’t indicate that a cut following the 2012 season couldn’t be “performance related”. Unless the Vikings had access to a time machine.

As a Vikings fan I can tell you it was pretty fishy from the start. They burned a 5th round draft pick on a punting slot when several other positions were far more pressing. (examples: Literally any offensive slot not currently occupied by someone named Adrian Peterson) Kluwe was good at what he did.

Was it “fishy” a year before, when they still had more pressing needs (and weren’t just coming off of a playoff run), when they released their FG kicker and drafted 20 picks later than Locke was (175 compared to 155)?

Kluwe, like Longwell, WAS good at what he did. However, they had become average at best players who were nearing the end of their contracts and required more money to keep than a younger player would. What happened to Kluwe almost directly mirrors what happened to Longwell a year before, despite Longwell not being some kind of political activist.
 
Oh boy, sports and the NFL combine. My opinion? You're foolishly just assuming Kluwe's side of the story is absolutely true.

It's unquestionable that Phil Robertson was suspended due to his statements in the interview. A&E pretty much admitted that it was due to that backlash, and there was little other reason to believe it to be the case.

The same cannot be said for old Chris Warcraft. There is nothing but speculation on his part to suggest that it was his statements and actions OFF the field that got him released. Quite to the contrary, there’s compelling evidence to suggest that there were legitimate and obvious FOOTBALL reasons to cut him.

Kluwe had an inconsistent 2012, having one two game stretch where 8 of his 13 punts were under 40 yards including one 20 yarder (Source). Kluwe was 24th in Punting Average, 18th in Net Average, and 31st in the league for punts inside the 20 yard line ((Source). Those aren’t good numbers for a punter.

Then you add his contract situation on top of his inconsistent and middling play. 2013 would’ve been the final year of a 6 year contract and would’ve cost them $1.45 million against their cap (Source). By cutting Kluwe and going with a young punter, they saved $1 million on their cap number AND have their punter locked up for the next 3 years at cap numbers lower than the veteran minimum they would, at best, have to pay Kluwe (Source).

Finally, moving away from the cold hard facts of his stats and his contract, let’s peak at two more subjective pieces of supporting fact. The Vikings did the same thing to their field goal kicker, who isn’t an outspoken activist, the year before. Veteran Ryan Longwell had a middle of the pack year in 2011, similar to what Kluwe had in 2012. He also was coming up towards the end of his contract. The Vikings decided to go younger, releasing Longwell and going with a young rookie kicker. Sound familiar? It should, it’s the same general script that happened with Kluwe. Additionally, after getting released by the Vikings Kluwe joined on with the Raiders at a lower salary. Did he make that team? No, he got beat out by a young punter.

UNLIKE Phil Robertson, there is clear and substantial evidence to show that Kluwe had his job terminated NOT because of his statements and speech, but rather because of his performance on the job. So the sad attempt to actually connect the two of them doesn’t just look desperate, it looks foolish.

Now, IF the Vikings released him because of his views, which I don’t believe…then that’s their prerogative just as I felt it was A&E’s prerogative. I’d think it’d be dumb to do JUST for that, as I did with A&E. However, I don’t believe that to be the case. What I think is more likely is that the fact he was causing a distraction that was the issue.

Football teams don’t like distractions. Case in point…you have a 2 time NCAA championship winning, Heisman trophy winning, QB with a playoff victory in his pocket over Ben Roethlisberger and the respected Pittsburgh Steelers, whose only 26 and who can’t even get onto a team as the 3rd string QB. Why can Tim Tebow not get a job? Because of the distraction his presence causes. Note, unlike Kluwe, this wouldn’t even necessarily be due to things he’s actively DOING or SAYING currently…but simply because the media and his fans are so worked up over him that they cause the distraction.

Distractions are disliked in the NFL. If Kluwe was making noise and gaining national attention by being massively Pro-Gun, or by saying the POTUS is a muslim, or something like that then I think the Vikings, IF the distraction played into it, would’ve been just as likely to get rid of himas they would’ve because of his gay views. Because it’s not about his views, it’s about the distraction.

However, I think first and foremost…as illustrated by the facts I showed above…I believe this was a football decision. Was it a football decision made easier because it also got rid of a distraction? Quite likely. But there’s plenty of facts to support that Kluwe was released because of FOOTBALL issues. There’s next to no facts, other than Kluwe’s opinions and statements, to indicate he was fired for his beliefs.

I like Kluwe, at times I find him entertaining, hell I had friends who ran Raids with him years ago.....but he's ridiculously wrong here.

That all may be true but if he didn't whine about this like he did, we wouldn't be talking about him, getting his name out there, and thereby securing a job for him in the future.

Maybe it was a smart move on his part.

I am sure there are plenty of companies that would hire him even though he just threw his current employeers under the bus.
 
Re: I Was An NFL Player Until I Was Fired By Two Cowards And A Bigot

They just had Kluwe on Minnesota Public Radio. Probably no audio yet since it just happened. He did say that declining performance and his big contract were definitely factors in other teams not picking him up. His feeling in personally dealing with coaches in private indicated that his advocacy was not welcomed by the coaching staff. See in his article where he recounts that Leslie Frazier asked him to stop, but said "Well, I guess I'm overruled" when Kluwe told him that Zygi Wilf wanted him to continue. More of a personal feeling, which none of us were there to witness.

I do understand that taken as a whole, releasing Kluwe made sense, and that his advocacy was part of a bigger picture. On the other hand, discounting it completely as one factor among others is not really looking at the bigger picture.
 
That all may be true but if he didn't whine about this like he did, we wouldn't be talking about him, getting his name out there, and thereby securing a job for him in the future.

Maybe it was a smart move on his part.

I am sure there are plenty of companies that would hire him even though he just threw his current employeers under the bus.

His former employers. He was not with the team this season, and he specifically waited until Frazier was fired before he said anything.
 
Re: I Was An NFL Player Until I Was Fired By Two Cowards And A Bigot

They just had Kluwe on Minnesota Public Radio. Probably no audio yet since it just happened. He did say that declining performance and his big contract were definitely factors in other teams not picking him up. His feeling in personally dealing with coaches in private indicated that his advocacy was not welcomed by the coaching staff. See in his article where he recounts that Leslie Frazier asked him to stop, but said "Well, I guess I'm overruled" when Kluwe told him that Zygi Wilf wanted him to continue. More of a personal feeling, which none of us were there to witness.

I do understand that taken as a whole, releasing Kluwe made sense, and that his advocacy was part of a bigger picture. On the other hand, discounting it completely as one factor among others is not really looking at the bigger picture.

Except you're trying to claim this is exaclty like the Duck Dynasty thing and it's not even close. I looked at his story again and he sounds like a complete douchebag (saying he wants one of those guys never to work again in the NFL). I sincerely doubt, based on the tone that he was as conciliatory and concerned about the team as he claims. This is who you choose as your hero?
 
Re: I Was An NFL Player Until I Was Fired By Two Cowards And A Bigot

Except you're trying to claim this is exaclty like the Duck Dynasty thing and it's not even close. I looked at his story again and he sounds like a complete douchebag (saying he wants one of those guys never to work again in the NFL). I sincerely doubt, based on the tone that he was as conciliatory and concerned about the team as he claims. This is who you choose as your hero?

My hero? Um ok....I guess he's a better choice than you.

I didn't claim it was "exactly" like anything except in your head, though there are parallels. Not surprisingly, you think it's totally justified because Kluwe's viewpoint is liberal and Robertson's isn't. Kluwe talked to team lawyers first, I doubt Robertson went to that much trouble. It's not "exactly" like it. It's different on a variety of levels, but you don't think there's any similarity at all?
 
Re: I Was An NFL Player Until I Was Fired By Two Cowards And A Bigot

They just had Kluwe on Minnesota Public Radio. Probably no audio yet since it just happened. He did say that declining performance and his big contract were definitely factors in other teams not picking him up. His feeling in personally dealing with coaches in private indicated that his advocacy was not welcomed by the coaching staff. See in his article where he recounts that Leslie Frazier asked him to stop, but said "Well, I guess I'm overruled" when Kluwe told him that Zygi Wilf wanted him to continue. More of a personal feeling, which none of us were there to witness.

I do understand that taken as a whole, releasing Kluwe made sense, and that his advocacy was part of a bigger picture. On the other hand, discounting it completely as one factor among others is not really looking at the bigger picture.
Thats kinda like excusing and justifying the waitress for lying about being stiffed on a tip because she was gay cuz...well...you know discrimination still happens. You CAN just speculate because it makes you feel better about your cause...but it doesnt make it right.
 
I Was An NFL Player Until I Was Fired By Two Cowards And A Bigot

Chris Kluwe writes about his advocacy for SSM, how he believes it led to him losing his job as Vikings Punter, and how it may keep him from ever playing in the NFL again.

Question:

Do you feel the same way about Chris Kluwe as about Phil Robertson? If not, why not? Is Chris Kluwe an "American Hero" as Phil Robertson has been referred to?

My opinion - The Vikings had every right to release him for whatever reason. It is too bad that this would happen for him speaking his mind, especially after the team owner told him to "keep it up."

I have to agree that owners should have the right to hire/fire based upon their own desires.

Also, don't watch much NFL Football anymore, how good was he really doing as a Punter?
 
Re: I Was An NFL Player Until I Was Fired By Two Cowards And A Bigot

My hero? Um ok....I guess he's a better choice than you.

I use "hero" because you said in your OP that people considered the Duck Dynasty dude an "American Hero" so I'm assuming you would be fair and say the same about Kluwe supporters, including yourself.

I didn't claim it was "exactly" like anything except in your head, though there are parallels. Not surprisingly, you think it's totally justified because Kluwe's viewpoint is liberal and Robertson's isn't. Kluwe talked to team lawyers first, I doubt Robertson went to that much trouble. It's not "exactly" like it. It's different on a variety of levels, but you don't think there's any similarity at all?

And Kluwe's conversation with the lawyers is completely irrelevant if Kluwe was dropped for reasons other than his pontificating. There was zero question why Robertson was suspended (fired, whatever). Can you honestly say that about this situation? I do think it's interesting that Kluwe says he's being blackballed for his opinion, and how terrible that is, then advocates that other guy being black listed as well.
 
I have to agree that owners should have the right to hire/fire based upon their own desires.

Also, don't watch much NFL Football anymore, how good was he really doing as a Punter?

He was good. Not great, but good enough.
 
Re: I Was An NFL Player Until I Was Fired By Two Cowards And A Bigot

I do understand that taken as a whole, releasing Kluwe made sense, and that his advocacy was part of a bigger picture. On the other hand, discounting it completely as one factor among others is not really looking at the bigger picture.

Oh, I absolutely think it's reasonable to suggest his advocacy...in general...probably had something to do with it. And I do mean advocacy in general. The gay issue is not the only thing that Kluwe has caused a media stir over as a punter. He garnered a bunch of distracting media attention around the time of the lockout for things he said and wrote. As he pointed out, the Ray Guy thing became a media cycle note when it happened. Kluwe had a prepencity to be someone to garner media attention, something that is probably not looked at as a positive for a punter REGARDLESS of what it's about.

You'll put up with a headache if the guy is a good player and performing well. However if a guy isn't performing well and has a big cap hit for his position and is a continual distraction that probably spells the end of his time with a team.

But the foundation there is PERFORMANCE. Had Kluwe still been a top 5 or 10 punter in the league and had a sub $1 million cap hit I would bet every dollar I have that he'd still be a Viking.

But believing that the fact he's causing distractions by garnering a lot of media attention helped contribute to him losing his job...and believing that the specific view point he held caused it are two entirely different things.

I think him being a distraction probably contributed. I don't think the VIEW he held was a contributing factor. Even in Kluwe's clearly not impartial account of the situation, the special teams coach is the only person giving any indicatoin (of which Kluwe even states often it felt like it was in a "joking" manner) that Kluwe's VIEWS bothered him. The Head Coach didn't seem to have any stance on the VIEW, but had an issue with the media distraction. The Owner didn't have any issue with the view; hell he liked the view. The GM didn't seem to have anything said about him.

The three guys who actually would have personnel control...the coach, the GM, and the owner? Even Kluwe's account doesn't give an inidication of events clearly showing they didn't like his VIEW POINT. At best, they didn't like the fact he was making a lot of noise that was stirring up the media and causing a distraction.

But again, the attempt to tie this to robertson to stupidly point at people going "HYPOCRITE" is just way, way off base. It's like asking if a ferrari is similar to a vespa because they both have wheels and an engine.

In terms of the reasons of their termination: It's undisputable that Robertson was suspended because of people having a negative impact towards his stated view point. It's at least a question, if not a higher probability, whether or not Kluwe's release was primarily based on production.

In terms of the circumstances leading to the statements: Phil Robertson was actively asked a question regarding his views in a broadly focused interview. Chris Kluwe actively shopped his letter about this issue to Deadspin to get them to publish it, and then was actively going around in the media to speak specifically about this issue.

In terms of the statements relation to the product: Phil Robertson's beliefs are a central part of message of the entertainment vehicle of his employer, as indicated by the fact of them closing their shows with a prayer. Chris Kluwe's beliefs are entirely irrelevant and completely disconnected from the entertainment vehicle of his employer, as gay rights is not in any way directly related to football or the NFL.

I was not one that was screaming "free speech" (it wasn't a free speech issue), nor one suggesting A&E didn't or shouldn't have the ability to suspend Robertson, but I don't see these two situations as being similar enough to warrant a direct comparison and attempted usage as a cudgel to beat people for being hypocritical.
 
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He was good. Not great, but good enough.

He was 18th in Net yardage in 2012. So out of 32 full time punters, Chris Kluwe wasn't even in the top half. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't put that as "good". Mind you, I give him the benefit of the doubt and go with Net yardage since he claims he was told to kick it higher to compensate for coverage. If we just went with pure average, he'd be 24th...in the bottom 1/4th of the league.

When it comes to the "skill" kick for Punters...getting it inside the 20? He was 31st out of 32 starting punters. Second to last. Not a stat for someone who was "good".

At one point I think you could say Chris Kluwe was a very good punter. In 2012 you're being kind if you're saying Kluwe was anything better than average.

Average punters aren't worth a near $1.5 million salary cap hit and one of the highest pay checks for a punter in the league.
 
His former employers. He was not with the team this season, and he specifically waited until Frazier was fired before he said anything.

You are right but that doesn't make any difference to me.

I can't have an employee bad mouthing my company or me for a perceived slight that might or might not have happened.

Most people are smart enough not to burn bridges, but this guy isn't.
 
Re: I Was An NFL Player Until I Was Fired By Two Cowards And A Bigot

Oh, I absolutely think it's reasonable to suggest his advocacy...in general...probably had something to do with it. And I do mean advocacy in general. The gay issue is not the only thing that Kluwe has caused a media stir over as a punter. He garnered a bunch of distracting media attention around the time of the lockout for things he said and wrote. As he pointed out, the Ray Guy thing became a media cycle note when it happened. Kluwe had a prepencity to be someone to garner media attention, something that is probably not looked at as a positive for a punter REGARDLESS of what it's about.

You'll put up with a headache if the guy is a good player and performing well. However if a guy isn't performing well and has a big cap hit for his position and is a continual distraction that probably spells the end of his time with a team.

But the foundation there is PERFORMANCE. Had Kluwe still been a top 5 or 10 punter in the league and had a sub $1 million cap hit I would bet every dollar I have that he'd still be a Viking.

But believing that the fact he's causing distractions by garnering a lot of media attention helped contribute to him losing his job...and believing that the specific view point he held caused it are two entirely different things.

I think him being a distraction probably contributed. I don't think the VIEW he held was a contributing factor. Even in Kluwe's clearly not impartial account of the situation, the special teams coach is the only person giving any indicatoin (of which Kluwe even states often it felt like it was in a "joking" manner) that Kluwe's VIEWS bothered him. The Head Coach didn't seem to have any stance on the VIEW, but had an issue with the media distraction. The Owner didn't have any issue with the view; hell he liked the view. The GM didn't seem to have anything said about him.

The three guys who actually would have personnel control...the coach, the GM, and the owner? Even Kluwe's account doesn't give an inidication of events clearly showing they didn't like his VIEW POINT. At best, they didn't like the fact he was making a lot of noise that was stirring up the media and causing a distraction.

But again, the pathetic attempt to tie this to robertson to stupidly point at people going "HYPOCRITE" is just way...way off base. It's like asking if a ferrari is similar to a vespa because they both have wheels and an engine.

In terms of the reasons of their termination: It's undisputable that Robertson was suspended because of people having a negative impact towards his stated view point. It's at least a question, if not a higher probability, whether or not Kluwe's release was primarily based on production.

In terms of the circumstances leading to the statements: Phil Robertson was actively asked a question regarding his views in a broadly focused interview. Chris Kluwe actively shopped his letter about this issue to Deadspin to get them to publish it, and then was actively going around in the media to speak specifically about this issue.

In terms of the statements relation to the product: Phil Robertson's beliefs are a central part of message of the entertainment vehicle of his employer, as indicated by the fact of them closing their shows with a prayer. Chris Kluwe's beliefs are entirely irrelevant and completely disconnected from the entertainment vehicle of his employer, as gay rights is not in any way directly related to football or the NFL.

I was not one that was screaming "free speech" (it wasn't a free speech issue), nor one suggesting A&E didn't or shouldn't have the ability to suspend Robertson, but I don't see these two situations as being similar enough to warrant a direct comparison and attempted usage as a cudgel to beat people for being hypocritical.

I'm sure it didn't take much to get Deadspin to cover it. Kluwe had written for Deadspin before. Once that got published, it was pretty much guaranteed that every media outlet in Minnesota would want to talk to him.

I did not call anyone a hypocrite. I pointed out the similarities, and I would challenge you to go back and see where I called ANYONE in this thread a hypocrite (despite X Factor's repeated attempts to make me look like one). Though it is interesting that only one Conservative did not take the opportunity to knock Kluwe's account (of those that participated in this thread). Meanwhile there's been a concerted attempt to paint me as a hypocrite. Probably because it's easier to take on what you WANTED me to say rather than what I did say. You all have been sitting with baited breath WANTING me to say "Conservatives are hypocrites" because it would make it so easy for you. So instead of waiting for me to say it, you put the words in my mouth.
 
Yes....how crazy it is to actually look at stats, look at history, and look at contractual situations of the business rather than just looking at a single article written by the person in question and forming the opinion that it's "too bad that this would happen for him speaking his mind".

As to the hypocrite point, clearly you attempting to utilize the "Glenn Beck" defense of "I'm just asking questions" while SPECIFICALLY stating your first question in such a way as to clearly suggest that the Phil Robertson situation as comparable. Wonderful Glenn Becking of your point, beautifully done. :roll:

Kluwe actively attempted to get media attention. That attempt caused MORE media attention, which led to issues for the team (as indicated in his own column when talking about how the team was being flooded with calls). While spending his time attempting to engage in activism he was also putting up an average at best year while making one of the highest specialists saleries in the entire league. He actively acknowledges seeing the same trend happen to another specialist kicker on his team a year before who wasn't making a big political stand in the media. Yet despite that he STILL tries to insinuate that his VIEW itself was a significant portion of his release. I don't buy it, and I don't think any of the supporting facts support it.

The situation is barely comparable to the Robertson issue UNLESS you singularly buy the notion that Kluwe was fired for WHAT he said; which, given the evidence, is ridiculous. However, you CHOSE to compare it to such a thing....I'm sorry you dislike someone pointing out that such a comparison is idiotic, but that's what happens when you make idiotic comparisons. I'm also sorry you seem to dislike that someone takes time to actually research facts but that's something you'll just have to deal with.
 
Re: I Was An NFL Player Until I Was Fired By Two Cowards And A Bigot

Well it's clear to me given the Te'o and Rogers fiascos (and many others, going back to reggie white at least) that, regardless of the veracity of this claim, the NFL is way too homophobic to ever support.

Seriously? A bunch of grown musclebound men in tight pants all bending over in front of the ball handler and you think they are homophobic?
 
Re: I Was An NFL Player Until I Was Fired By Two Cowards And A Bigot

I thought about this story, but I couldn't remember Kerry Rhodes' name. Another player who's not a superstar, but definitely a decent player that you'd think someone could use at least as a backup. At Rhodes' position (Defensive Back), so many teams could use a little help.

From what i understand, he and a few others (including Rodgers) intended to come out all at once but after the Collins story blew up, they got cold feet and in Rhodes' case, shut out of contracts. That's quite a cowardly and selfish move by the teams to be so afraid of bad publicity, while they hire a dog killer and other felons. In the offseason especially, the media circus would last a couple weeks tops, then it becomes a non issue and players in college won't have to hide anymore either.

But with "allies" like Kluwe screaming persecution and coaches saying that gays should be nuked (if true, sounds like Priefer belongs with westboro or perhaps nuremberg if you catch my drift), who will come out in this environment?
 
His firing seemed justified to me. Like it or not him being outspoken could affect the financial well being of the franchise.

Tim tebow would be fired for the same exact reason, but I think his views probably add fans so there is no reason to.

Such is the plight of being in the public eye. Increased scrutiny.

Yeah, some might be prejudiced so let's cater to that. I suppose baseball shouldn't have allowed that rabble rouser Jackie Robinson into the league either.
 
Anyone who is talking about "best in franchise history" has no clue about how punters are traded like baseball cards. If you're a punter for a team for 4 years, chances are likely that you hold punting records for them. I've seen Ray Guy award winners get shuffled from city to city.
 
the guy's stats for 2012 had dropped. he had surgery to repair a torn ACL during the off season. he had a contract for 1.5 million dollars. The Vikings drafted a rookie punter they could pay league minimum of 385K.

after he was cut, the Raiders picked him up and he couldn't make the team there and was cut a couple of months later.

Kluwe's gay activism had about as much to do with his release as Tebow's christianity had to do with his.
 
Yes....how crazy it is to actually look at stats, look at history, and look at contractual situations of the business rather than just looking at a single article written by the person in question and forming the opinion that it's "too bad that this would happen for him speaking his mind".

As to the hypocrite point, clearly you attempting to utilize the "Glenn Beck" defense of "I'm just asking questions" while SPECIFICALLY stating your first question in such a way as to clearly suggest that the Phil Robertson situation as comparable. Wonderful Glenn Becking of your point, beautifully done. :roll:

Kluwe actively attempted to get media attention. That attempt caused MORE media attention, which led to issues for the team (as indicated in his own column when talking about how the team was being flooded with calls). While spending his time attempting to engage in activism he was also putting up an average at best year while making one of the highest specialists saleries in the entire league. He actively acknowledges seeing the same trend happen to another specialist kicker on his team a year before who wasn't making a big political stand in the media. Yet despite that he STILL tries to insinuate that his VIEW itself was a significant portion of his release. I don't buy it, and I don't think any of the supporting facts support it.

The situation is barely comparable to the Robertson issue UNLESS you singularly buy the notion that Kluwe was fired for WHAT he said; which, given the evidence, is ridiculous. However, you CHOSE to compare it to such a thing....I'm sorry you dislike someone pointing out that such a comparison is idiotic, but that's what happens when you make idiotic comparisons. I'm also sorry you seem to dislike that someone takes time to actually research facts but that's something you'll just have to deal with.

Are you in some sort of "how many paragraphs of crap can you type" competition?

Anything about how I "completely buy" what he said is wrong if you read any of what I said. If you read what you wanted me to say, which is clearly what you did, that problem is yours and yours alone.
 
Are you in some sort of "how many paragraphs of crap can you type" competition?

Anything about how I "completely buy" what he said is wrong if you read any of what I said. If you read what you wanted me to say, which is clearly what you did, that problem is yours and yours alone.

The only way this comparison you've tried to make between this and the Robertson thing makes sense is if you accept Kluwe's account as the complete, unbiased truth.
 
Re: I Was An NFL Player Until I Was Fired By Two Cowards And A Bigot

Seriously? A bunch of grown musclebound men in tight pants all bending over in front of the ball handler and you think they are homophobic?

That only explains the appeal to watch.

Try getting them to wear a rainbow patch similar to what they do for breast cancer, or even not threaten gay teammates with getting cut, and you'll see what i mean.

Wade Davis (American football) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
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