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The NSA's Reach Might Be Even Bigger Than We Thought

Do you not get that this is a matter of scale? There is no evidence for the claim in the OP article. You're ok with that?

Yes, it is a matter of scale. If even ONE persons rights are violated by the government and it is allowed to not only continue but strengthen then there is a HUGE problem. AND the NSA has already proven that they not only violated peoples rights but have done everything they can to keep trying to do so. Why should I doubt the OP's article?
 
If you are a terrorist, it's everyone's business.

I find it extremely difficult to imagine that millions of people in this country are terrorists. I have no problem going after those that are. But violating everyone elses rights to do so is the wrong way to go about it. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
 
You just don't quit eh?

When you get some fine fine examples of actual citizens being abused by this system, let us know. Until then, no point rehashing how stupid your beliefs are or that you have yet to provide a single data point. Bye.

The abuse is in the violation of privacy. A right that every single person has until they have been proven as not deserving that Right. Every single person that the NSA has collected data on in which the person is NOT a terrorist or criminal has been abused because their Rights have been abused. That includes me since I am myself a Verizon customer. My right to privacy has been violated for no valid, substantial, or provable reason as to why.
 
Yes, it is a matter of scale.

So, you're aware of the topic.

If even ONE persons rights are violated by the government and it is allowed to not only continue but strengthen then there is a HUGE problem. AND the NSA has already proven that they not only violated peoples rights but have done everything they can to keep trying to do so.

That's not the debate in this thread. You're just presenting stuff from weeks, months ago. You're recycling what is probably your post (platitudes) from back then.

Why should I doubt the OP's article?

Because there is NO EVIDENCE presented. Do you make it a habit to believe things without evidence?
 
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When hysterically paranoid speculation becomes "fact"...


They certainly are, they even patrol video games, so they're certainly watching and parsing as much as they possibly can regardless of consequence and implication.

lol and see, that's why I can't take this seriously, They certainly are not. It'd be funny if they were but...lol no

How do you know? The information is secret and needs to remain secret, right? So you can't know that for fact.
 
When hysterically paranoid speculation becomes "fact"...

Not only is this just dismissive tripe, but as OldWorld had said, things have to be secret by necessity and so I asked him how he could know the whole truth if things must be secret by necessity.

Again, it's called reading and context, you may want to try it out.
 
Not only is this just dismissive tripe, but as OldWorld had said, things have to be secret by necessity and so I asked him how he could know the whole truth if things must be secret by necessity.

Again, it's called reading and context, you may want to try it out.

Probably because I worked there. And not as just an IT guy lol
 
Because there is NO EVIDENCE presented. Do you make it a habit to believe things without evidence?

Three things.

1: Once a liar, always a liar.

2: Guilt by association.

3: Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.

Again, why should I doubt the OP? In otherwords what has the NSA done to make me want to trust them?
 
Probably because I worked there. And not as just an IT guy lol

And obviously you were so high up that you had ALL the clearance, yeah? I mean, things are secret and need to be secret, but not from you right?

How do you know? If things are secret and need to be secret how can you have knowledge of the entire system as it stands now. I mean "worked" there, yeah? They keep sending you updates after you were gone? It's wonderful that such a high level clearance government agent such as yourself frequents this board to keep us advised on the secrets the NSA continues to collect. lol
 
Three things.

1: Once a liar, always a liar.

2: Guilt by association.

3: Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.

Again, why should I doubt the OP? In otherwords what has the NSA done to make me want to trust them?

Any group (country, race, religion, organization, etc) could be indicted via your qualifications above. Your "three things" is a fine list of things not to use in evidence. Listing 'guilt by association' as a factor is funny, it's like "2. Logical fallacy".

Those "three things" are what nutbag republicans use to indict Obama for various nefarious motives.
 
Any group (country, race, religion, organization, etc) could be indicted via your qualifications above. Your "three things" is a fine list of things not to use in evidence. Listing 'guilt by association' as a factor is funny, it's like "2. Logical fallacy".

Those "three things" are what nutbag republicans use to indict Obama for various nefarious motives.

Except we're not talking about any group (country, race, religion, organization, etc). We're talking about the NSA. An organization who's very mandate is to ferret out secrets. There is a right way to do this and a wrong way. They have already proven that they have no qualms about doing it the wrong way. If you want me to not take the OP at face value then you are going to have to prove the NSA's innocence.
 
Any group (country, race, religion, organization, etc) could be indicted via your qualifications above. Your "three things" is a fine list of things not to use in evidence. Listing 'guilt by association' as a factor is funny, it's like "2. Logical fallacy".

Those "three things" are what nutbag republicans use to indict Obama for various nefarious motives.

Except we're not talking about any group (country, race, religion, organization, etc). We're talking about the NSA. An organization who's very mandate is to ferret out secrets. There is a right way to do this and a wrong way. They have already proven that they have no qualms about doing it the wrong way. If you want me to not take the OP at face value then you are going to have to prove the NSA's innocence.
 
Except we're not talking about any group (country, race, religion, organization, etc). We're talking about the NSA. An organization who's very mandate is to ferret out secrets. There is a right way to do this and a wrong way. They have already proven that they have no qualms about doing it the wrong way. If you want me to not take the OP at face value then you are going to have to prove the NSA's innocence.

As long as it's guilty until proven innocent, there's no debate. It can be accused and you don't care about evidence.
 
As long as it's guilty until proven innocent, there's no debate. It can be accused and you don't care about evidence.

In otherwords you can't prove their innocence. See, thats the funny thing about this. You have no more proof that they are innocent than I do that they are guilty. You are making the assumption that they are innocent. I'm making the assumption that they are guilty. Yours is based on lack of sufficent evidence. Mine is based on their past actions.

Lack of available evidence regarding an organization that is based on keeping secrets is hardly surprising. Of course when evidence does surface in the only way available...ie whistleblower...that whistleblower is condemned and ostrasized as a traitor and is hunted. Simple fact of the matter is that you don't want evidence of guilt or innocence when it comes to the NSA. You're perfectly willing to allow them to continue violating peoples Rights.
 
You're perfectly willing to allow them to continue violating peoples Rights.


Hey, this is a phone number of a terrorist. See if anyone is connecting to it.


Yeah, that's a huge violation of your rights. I need a "1st world problems" gif.
 
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Hey, this is a phone number of a terrorist. See if anyone is connecting to it.


Yeah, that's a huge violation of your rights. I need a "1st world problems" gif.

Except that is not what is happening and you know it. They are collecting millions of peoples phone records regardless if there is a connection to terrorists or not. The proper way to go about an investigation is to work backwards, not forwards. You start from someone you know is a terrorist and find the people that they are connected to. You do not violate peoples rights hoping to find a terrorist. Thats akin to torturing someone while hoping that you have the right person in order to stop a bomb from going off. Neither is the right thing to do.

And I note that you can't deny anything else I said in that post.
 
Except that is not what is happening and you know it. They are collecting millions of peoples phone records regardless if there is a connection to terrorists or not. The proper way to go about an investigation is to work backwards, not forwards. You start from someone you know is a terrorist and find the people that they are connected to. You do not violate peoples rights hoping to find a terrorist. Thats akin to torturing someone while hoping that you have the right person in order to stop a bomb from going off. Neither is the right thing to do.

One cannot track all of the connections of a particular simcard without constant access to it. Searching a list of connections for that number is not a violation of rights. It's not "collecting millions of peoples phone records", it's searching a list of connections.

And I note that you can't deny anything else I said in that post.

I'll give the rhetoric a 7.5/10, mainly for this part:

the only way available...ie whistleblower...that whistleblower is condemned and ostrasized as a traitor and is hunted...

Coming to an IMAX theater near you this Christmas... Snowden.
 
It's funny, the same characters that cheerlead for U.S. government spying on Americans always pop in to defend whatever acronymed agency that is in trouble FOR spying on Americans.

They're the "Nothing to see here, now move along" clan.
 
And obviously you were so high up that you had ALL the clearance, yeah? I mean, things are secret and need to be secret, but not from you right?

How do you know? If things are secret and need to be secret how can you have knowledge of the entire system as it stands now. I mean "worked" there, yeah? They keep sending you updates after you were gone? It's wonderful that such a high level clearance government agent such as yourself frequents this board to keep us advised on the secrets the NSA continues to collect. lol

Again,, if you don't even know what clearance means, why are you talking about this stuff?
 
Except that is not what is happening and you know it. They are collecting millions of peoples phone records regardless if there is a connection to terrorists or not. The proper way to go about an investigation is to work backwards, not forwards. You start from someone you know is a terrorist and find the people that they are connected to. You do not violate peoples rights hoping to find a terrorist. Thats akin to torturing someone while hoping that you have the right person in order to stop a bomb from going off. Neither is the right thing to do.

And I note that you can't deny anything else I said in that post.

Exactly. What kind of mindset condones and endeavors so to cover up or distract from government wrong doing, especially on this scale. This is ridiculous to frame this as conspiracy theory. Americans across the board are expressing their concerns and outrage about this. Professors, constitutional lawyers, groups like freedom works, ACLU and plenty more, politicians from both sides of the isle AND FROM INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEES, a SCOTUS judge, ex presidents, not to mention world leaders and citizens the world over, ALL are calling into question, calling for reform (Jim Sensenbrenner and others) and pushing for new legislation to back this up! There is NO defense for this.
 
It's funny, the same characters that cheerlead for U.S. government spying on Americans always pop in to defend whatever acronymed agency that is in trouble FOR spying on Americans.

They're the "Nothing to see here, now move along" clan.

Employees past or present or some other undisclosed reason to be sympathizes of the ABC/Agency to work tirelessly in defense of the patently and hugely indefensible.
 
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