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Thread: The NSA's Reach Might Be Even Bigger Than We Thought

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    Re: The NSA's Reach Might Be Even Bigger Than We Thought

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    The oversight is there. You just don't think it's proper. That's the only issue. They'll keep on keeping on, luckily.
    Secret courts, ignoring the constitution, and uncontrolled data mining is not something constrained to oversight and restriction. No matter what you think. They will keep on keeping on of course, government doesn't stop even when it does wrong. All government tends towards tyranny when left to their own devices. I'd rather just keep the Republic, you seem perhaps not so much on board with that.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: The NSA's Reach Might Be Even Bigger Than We Thought

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Secret courts, ignoring the constitution, and uncontrolled data mining is not something constrained to oversight and restriction. No matter what you think.
    Uhh...they are. No matter what you think.

    They will keep on keeping on of course, government doesn't stop even when it does wrong. All government tends towards tyranny when left to their own devices. I'd rather just keep the Republic, you seem perhaps not so much on board with that.
    I like the republic. I don't like the form of democracy where everyone knows everything when it comes to intelligence, however. You don't need to be an expert to understand why that isn't good. So yes: republic. Where people are elected to perform that oversight on behalf of people. People who won't know the details and sometimes not even the big picture. Republics are good. Transparent democracy is bad. Boo to that.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

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    Re: The NSA's Reach Might Be Even Bigger Than We Thought

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    Uhh...they are. No matter what you think.



    I like the republic. I don't like the form of democracy where everyone knows everything when it comes to intelligence, however. You don't need to be an expert to understand why that isn't good. So yes: republic. Where people are elected to perform that oversight on behalf of people. People who won't know the details and sometimes not even the big picture. Republics are good. Transparent democracy is bad. Boo to that.
    I think perhaps you don't understand what Republic means. You're looking for monarchy, oligarchy, or other class structured forms of government where power is thought to rest innately in the government itself and it must protect the citizens from themselves. That's not a free society, that's serfdom to the State.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: The NSA's Reach Might Be Even Bigger Than We Thought

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I think perhaps you don't understand what Republic means. You're looking for monarchy, oligarchy, or other class structured forms of government where power is thought to rest innately in the government itself and it must protect the citizens from themselves. That's not a free society, that's serfdom to the State.
    I'm fairly certain I know what a republic is. Oligarchy would, in fact, be better, but you take what you can get. In a republic, people vote for people to make decisions for them. That's what the US has. That's what was created. You're going to have to deal with it, I'm quite sorry.

    Intelligence agencies have oversight. It's never going to be public. That's intel work. You have to accept it or just pout for the rest of your life.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

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    Re: The NSA's Reach Might Be Even Bigger Than We Thought

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    I'm fairly certain I know what a republic is. Oligarchy would, in fact, be better, but you take what you can get. In a republic, people vote for people to make decisions for them. That's what the US has. That's what was created. You're going to have to deal with it, I'm quite sorry.

    Intelligence agencies have oversight. It's never going to be public. That's intel work. You have to accept it or just pout for the rest of your life.
    No, a Republic is a system founded on law and restricts government to the rights of the individual. You have thus demonstrated the inability to understand what Republic means.

    Our intelligence agencies have grown beyond their boundaries and now negatively affect our rights, liberties, and property. While it is true that on some level what intelligence agencies do must remain on whole a secret, that doesn't mean they can do whatever they want and we need to shut up, as your arguments would suggest. It must be constrained to proper levels, not allowed to aggregate against the People, and must contain the proper amount of regulation and oversight. We are most assuredly missing the regulation and oversight currently.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: The NSA's Reach Might Be Even Bigger Than We Thought

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    No, a Republic is a system founded on law and restricts government to the rights of the individual. You have thus demonstrated the inability to understand what Republic means.
    lol no

    Republic - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Our intelligence agencies have grown beyond their boundaries and now negatively affect our rights, liberties, and property.
    That's your opinion.

    While it is true that on some level what intelligence agencies do must remain on whole a secret, that doesn't mean they can do whatever they want and we need to shut up, as your arguments would suggest. It must be constrained to proper levels, not allowed to aggregate against the People, and must contain the proper amount of regulation and oversight. We are most assuredly missing the regulation and oversight currently.
    The constraints exist in the three branches of government, which the people elect directly, mostly directly, and through an elected official, respectively. It's your opinion we're missing the regulation and oversight. That's all.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

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    Re: The NSA's Reach Might Be Even Bigger Than We Thought

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    Exactly, the course and actions of government are public affair. It's a system of law, as your source supports.

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    That's your opinion.
    And reality

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    The constraints exist in the three branches of government, which the people elect directly, mostly directly, and through an elected official, respectively. It's your opinion we're missing the regulation and oversight. That's all.
    What constraints are those? The warrantless spying? The warrantless blanket data mining? The secret courts?
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: The NSA's Reach Might Be Even Bigger Than We Thought

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Exactly, the course and actions of government are public affair. It's a system of law, as your source supports.
    Yes. As you in elect the people to execute laws and provide oversight. Did you just read the first sentence or something? Lemme guess....not a polisci major?

    And reality
    Right. It's your opinion that it's reality. Your opinion.

    What constraints are those? The warrantless spying? The warrantless blanket data mining? The secret courts?
    The constraints of the government the people elect. I'm sorry you don't agree with them: that's a republic. Vote for someone else.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

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    Re: The NSA's Reach Might Be Even Bigger Than We Thought

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    No, a Republic is a system founded on law and restricts government to the rights of the individual. You have thus demonstrated the inability to understand what Republic means.

    Our intelligence agencies have grown beyond their boundaries and now negatively affect our rights, liberties, and property. While it is true that on some level what intelligence agencies do must remain on whole a secret, that doesn't mean they can do whatever they want and we need to shut up, as your arguments would suggest. It must be constrained to proper levels, not allowed to aggregate against the People, and must contain the proper amount of regulation and oversight. We are most assuredly missing the regulation and oversight currently.
    You're absolutely right on all counts, yet the problem isn't just the government and it's boundless march towards tyranny - it's also the abject ignorance and disinterest by the public. The end result will probably be ambivalence to all the spying.
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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    Re: The NSA's Reach Might Be Even Bigger Than We Thought

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    Yes. As you in elect the people to execute laws and provide oversight. Did you just read the first sentence or something? Lemme guess....not a polisci major?
    Not a major. I majored in Physics and Chemistry. I minored in Math, Political Science, and Botany before getting a MS and PhD in physics. The People elect representatives to perform government action as we have laid out in the contract between The People and The Government. But government itself is corruptible and part of oversight is duty of the People. We need proper information to form that servo.

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    Right. It's your opinion that it's reality. Your opinion.
    My data is continually confiscated without my permission and without warrant and without cause. That is violation of rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    The constraints of the government the people elect. I'm sorry you don't agree with them: that's a republic. Vote for someone else.
    No, the Republic is founded on law and is property of the Public Domain. The government must abide by the laws we have set forth in the Contract that established the government in the first place. Government is limited. Your version is not. It's dangerous to have unregulated government.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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