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Thread: The NSA's Reach Might Be Even Bigger Than We Thought

  1. #251
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    Re: The NSA's Reach Might Be Even Bigger Than We Thought

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Oh, I care about facts, you've just haven't brought any. The "Citizens need to be ignorant" as a blanket statement for everything isn't going to cut it.
    lol it's too bad it doesn't matter what you think cuts it or not. Write your representatives.

    You don't like metadata being collected. Federal judges have ruled that your opinion isn't legally valid. That's a fact, I'm sorry.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
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    Re: The NSA's Reach Might Be Even Bigger Than We Thought

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    lol it's too bad it doesn't matter what you think cuts it or not. Write your representatives.

    You don't like metadata being collected. Federal judges have ruled that your opinion isn't legally valid. That's a fact, I'm sorry.
    It's a Republic and free for now, so I can speak my mind. While I know the actions of the government overlook my desires, I am still allowed to express those.

    Again, you offer no proof, no evidence, no argument other than "sit down and shut up", and you expect people to just take that as valid argument? That's insanity. The only thing you have to back up your point is the guns of government, that's it. You have no base argument, no proof, and no evidence. That's a fact, I'm sorry.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  3. #253
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    Re: The NSA's Reach Might Be Even Bigger Than We Thought

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    It's a Republic and free for now, so I can speak my mind. While I know the actions of the government overlook my desires, I am still allowed to express those.

    Again, you offer no proof, no evidence, no argument other than "sit down and shut up", and you expect people to just take that as valid argument? That's insanity. The only thing you have to back up your point is the guns of government, that's it. You have no base argument, no proof, and no evidence. That's a fact, I'm sorry.
    What proof or evidence? Of what? Something to counter your imagination? You said it was spying, I gave you many pieces of evidence that would show that the metadata is not yours at all. What more do you want? I can't argue against your imagination.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

  4. #254
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    Re: The NSA's Reach Might Be Even Bigger Than We Thought

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    What proof or evidence? Of what? Something to counter your imagination? You said it was spying, I gave you many pieces of evidence that would show that the metadata is not yours at all. What more do you want? I can't argue against your imagination.
    Of your knowledge of the system, that everything is fine and dandy as you keep saying. You've offered no evidence. You have merely stated "I was there once, and so I know everything and anything about NSA practices and secrets and I say they are doing nothing wrong". That's what you offer. Just because you want to shift the field goal to keep off what you've been saying the entire thread doesn't remove what you have been saying the entire thread. I can't argue against your imagination.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  5. #255
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    Re: The NSA's Reach Might Be Even Bigger Than We Thought

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Of your knowledge of the system, that everything is fine and dandy as you keep saying.
    How could I go about proving this to you? Let me know.

    You've offered no evidence. You have merely stated "I was there once, and so I know everything and anything about NSA practices and secrets and I say they are doing nothing wrong".
    Right. You don't believe me? Okay.

    That's what you offer. Just because you want to shift the field goal to keep off what you've been saying the entire thread doesn't remove what you have been saying the entire thread. I can't argue against your imagination.
    I'm not imagining anything. You, however, are. You're asking for proof that undefined things that you have no proof of being done aren't happening. Think about the logic of that. That's like me saying "Ikari, I know you're doing something bad. I'm not exactly sure of what it is, but I want you to prove that you're not doing it." You'd laugh at someone that said that to you, because it makes no logical sense whatsoever. What undefined thing am I supposed to offer proof of NOT HAPPENING? You're asking me to prove a negative, which is perhaps the most infamous or all logical fallacies, and you aren't even telling me what that thing it is in the first place.

    On top of that, you've shown a shocking lack of knowledge about this thing you're criticizing to begin with.

    Final words for you on this, buddy: write your representatives. Vote for or against them according to their stances and how they marry up to (or don't, to yours). I can't keep watching you chase your tail. Take it easy.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

  6. #256
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    Re: The NSA's Reach Might Be Even Bigger Than We Thought

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    So now privacy is an essential liberty? Funny how they didn't use that word in even the constitution. Why is that data private? The way your UE uses an IMEI and IMSI to connect through a BTS to MSC, using abis/mobis links and whatnot back down to another IMEI and IMSI, across many different company's infrastructures, using various other company's software and hardware is your private data? No, the courts disagree. They agree with you that your conversation is yours (and the person you're conversing with), and that's that private. But they agree with me in that all of that that I listed previous to the conversation is not your private data. And whether it's an essential liberty or not is highly dubious.
    1: Privacy is implied in the Constitution and many courts through out decades have stated so.

    2: You might want to rethink about the courts agreeing with you....http://www.debatepolitics.com/breaki...onal.html]link

    3: They are collecting phone numbers and who you contact. It doesn't matter how that info is routed. That particular information IS private.

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    I don't think you have a right to cellular metadata, I'm sorry. That's not yours.
    Who said I have a right to metadata? I don't. However I DO have a right to privacy where my name, number, and contact info is concerned. The federal government has no right to that information.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

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    Re: The NSA's Reach Might Be Even Bigger Than We Thought

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    How could I go about proving this to you? Let me know.
    You made the claim, you have to provide proof that you had and still have access to ALL the NSA spying and activity. Otherwise you cannot demonstrate the absolute knowledge you've been throwing about.

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    Right. You don't believe me? Okay.
    I don't believe you have absolute knowledge, this is true. Because you don't have absolute knowledge and you no longer work there, you cannot claim that the NSA is absolutely not doing something because...well somethings need to be secret yes?

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    I'm not imagining anything. You, however, are. You're asking for proof that undefined things that you have no proof of being done aren't happening. Think about the logic of that. That's like me saying "Ikari, I know you're doing something bad. I'm not exactly sure of what it is, but I want you to prove that you're not doing it." You'd laugh at someone that said that to you, because it makes no logical sense whatsoever. What undefined thing am I supposed to offer proof of NOT HAPPENING? You're asking me to prove a negative, which is perhaps the most infamous or all logical fallacies, and you aren't even telling me what that thing it is in the first place.

    On top of that, you've shown a shocking lack of knowledge about this thing you're criticizing to begin with.
    Your imagining complete knowledge. I want demonstration that the government behaves properly, the government is always under the constraint that its powers are limited and the People are in charge. It must prove to the People that it is bound and restricted. If it refuses, then doubt comes into play and that's where we sit. Your side refuses to show its hand, its says secrets for secrets sake and while there is some understanding that there will be specifics kept secret; that mantra is used to excuse all secrets and to not show itself subservient to The People. Government power for the sake of government has never and never will be a good thing. This is fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    Final words for you on this, buddy: write your representatives. Vote for or against them according to their stances and how they marry up to (or don't, to yours). I can't keep watching you chase your tail. Take it easy.
    I do these things, but that doesn't mean I won't express my opinion on a political debate board which revolves around people expressing their opinion. Don't be daft.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  8. #258
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    Re: The NSA's Reach Might Be Even Bigger Than We Thought

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    Four years? lol I'm safely within the window. I'm making the claim that when someone says "Dude, remember that thing we used to have to do quarterly? Tom screwed that up so badly, it was hilarious. He was all flustered and ****, you should've seen it" I can imagine that they're not doing a completely different mission.

    So yes, you're going to have to deal with the fact that I know mountains more than you about this. If I'm ignorant? You're totally lost and have even less of a clue of what you're talking about. So I'm still doing much better in this conversation about what does and doesn't happen. You seem to have a horrible aversion to the truth. You simply don't want to hear it. I'm sure you're one of those people that doesn't believe anything that's disclosed that doesn't totally adhere to your view of intelligence agencies, aren't you? If it came out that the NSA used radio waves to give Fidel Castro a stroke, you'd be all "hmmm...plausible". It comes out that PRISM prevented a terrorist attack? "Nah, that's just what they want you to believe. STOP ATTACKING MY CIVIL LIBERTIES!"

    If you're just going to ignore anyone with any experience or knowledge, while depending on what you can imagine it happening, of course you can never be persuaded to think rationally. I mean...QED.
    Even assuming that everything you say regarding your knowledge of how the NSA works and what they do or don't collect is true...why the hell should we believe you? An anonymous poster on a forum. But besides that if you were truely a part of the NSA as more than just an IT guy you are a part of the secrecy and lies that the NSA is all about. You, as a part of that organization, are just as complicit in their lies and deceit and would deny any wrong doing of that organization no matter what. Unless of course irrefutable fact and proof was provided. Then you'd own up to...but while doing so you would still try to minimize it as much as possible. Do you deny this? (note: that is a rhetorical question because anyone with half a brain would know the answer)
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

    My mind and my heart are saying I'm in my twenties. My body is pointing at my mind and heart and laughing its ass off. ~ Kal'Stang

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    Re: The NSA's Reach Might Be Even Bigger Than We Thought

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Even assuming that everything you say regarding your knowledge of how the NSA works and what they do or don't collect is true...why the hell should we believe you? An anonymous poster on a forum. But besides that if you were truely a part of the NSA as more than just an IT guy you are a part of the secrecy and lies that the NSA is all about. You, as a part of that organization, are just as complicit in their lies and deceit and would deny any wrong doing of that organization no matter what. Unless of course irrefutable fact and proof was provided. Then you'd own up to...but while doing so you would still try to minimize it as much as possible. Do you deny this? (note: that is a rhetorical question because anyone with half a brain would know the answer)
    N.S.A. = Never Say Anything

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    Re: The NSA's Reach Might Be Even Bigger Than We Thought

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    wtf? Wow, then yes, everyone is spying on you. There's nothing special about the NSA doing it. You have a fundamentally different definition of spying than...anyone I've ever met. Are you mad about your phone company spying on you? The cashier at the store seeing your credit card info and sharing it with the phone company and infrastructure owners (not usually the same thing) while giving it your credit card people information about your exact whereabouts at that given time when you made the purchase.

    That's some tinfoil hat stuff, that's crazy as hell.

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