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Thread: The NSA's Reach Might Be Even Bigger Than We Thought

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    Re: The NSA's Reach Might Be Even Bigger Than We Thought

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    You're absolutely right on all counts, yet the problem isn't just the government and it's boundless march towards tyranny - it's also the abject ignorance and disinterest by the public. The end result will probably be ambivalence to all the spying.
    You are unfortunately correct, and it brings to mind one of my favorite quotes.

    “I apprehend no danger to our country from a foreign foe . . . Our destruction, should it come at all, will be from another quarter. From the inattention of the people to the concerns of their government, from their carelessness and negligence, I must confess that I do apprehend some danger. I fear that they may place too implicit a confidence in their public servants, and fail properly to scrutinize their conduct; that in this way they may be made the dupes of designing men, and become the instruments of their own undoing. Make them intelligent, and they will be vigilant; give them the means of detecting the wrong, and they will apply the remedy.”
    ― Daniel Webster
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: The NSA's Reach Might Be Even Bigger Than We Thought

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Not a major. I majored in Physics and Chemistry. I minored in Math, Political Science, and Botany before getting a MS and PhD in physics. The People elect representatives to perform government action as we have laid out in the contract between The People and The Government. But government itself is corruptible and part of oversight is duty of the People. We need proper information to form that servo.
    Then be aware: a republic is when the people elect the people to decide matters for them. It's not where they decide matters for them. That's why matters of intelligence- which need to be more secret than anything else, this isn't the damn secretary of interior- aren't divulged to the people.

    My data is continually confiscated without my permission and without warrant and without cause. That is violation of rights.
    And that's your opinion. Many federal judges disagree.

    No, the Republic is founded on law and is property of the Public Domain. The government must abide by the laws we have set forth in the Contract that established the government in the first place. Government is limited. Your version is not. It's dangerous to have unregulated government.
    Apparently they don't. Because what you have is...that's right...just your opinion.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

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    Re: The NSA's Reach Might Be Even Bigger Than We Thought

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    Then be aware: a republic is when the people elect the people to decide matters for them. It's not where they decide matters for them. That's why matters of intelligence- which need to be more secret than anything else, this isn't the damn secretary of interior- aren't divulged to the people.
    They decide within limits. They may not rule in any way they see fit, they are constrained.

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    And that's your opinion. Many federal judges disagree.
    And the 4th clearly states. Data mining clearly violates the 4th. Nothing prevents the courts from corruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    Apparently they don't. Because what you have is...that's right...just your opinion.
    That is definition of Republic, you're inability to grasp it only demonstrates your inability to fully understand what a Republic is. You're thinking government act is private concern and once the officials are elected, the People can have no more say and that those officials may do anything they want. That's not a Republic, that's an Oligarchy system.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: The NSA's Reach Might Be Even Bigger Than We Thought

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    They decide within limits. They may not rule in any way they see fit, they are constrained.
    No, it's pretty clear. You aren't getting anything divulged to you.

    And the 4th clearly states. Data mining clearly violates the 4th. Nothing prevents the courts from corruption.
    The 4th says nothing about your data. That's your interpretation. Your opinion.

    That is definition of Republic, you're inability to grasp it only demonstrates your inability to fully understand what a Republic is. You're thinking government act is private concern and once the officials are elected, the People can have no more say and that those officials may do anything they want. That's not a Republic, that's an Oligarchy system.
    lol no. No one else "gets it" other than you and mad people on the internet, huh?
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

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    Re: The NSA's Reach Might Be Even Bigger Than We Thought

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    No, it's pretty clear. You aren't getting anything divulged to you.
    It is clear, government action has been limited

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    The 4th says nothing about your data. That's your interpretation. Your opinion.
    It's papers and effects, anyone of any honest backing would have to agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    lol no. No one else "gets it" other than you and mad people on the internet, huh?
    No, there are many who understand that just because we elect an official doesn't mean that official can do whatever he wants whenever he wants.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: The NSA's Reach Might Be Even Bigger Than We Thought

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    It is clear, government action has been limited
    If it's clear, then why are you complaining about having more transparency? If it's clear, what's the issue?

    It's papers and effects, anyone of any honest backing would have to agree.
    Ahhh, so all those federal judges are dishonest. You sound very much like a zealot.

    No, there are many who understand that just because we elect an official doesn't mean that official can do whatever he wants whenever he wants.
    Ummm...okay? No one is talking about that. You think you are. But you're a very confused young man, who's obviously unable to discern his opinion from fact.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

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    Re: The NSA's Reach Might Be Even Bigger Than We Thought

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    If it's clear, then why are you complaining about having more transparency? If it's clear, what's the issue?
    Government interference preventing the proper oversight by the People.

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    Ahhh, so all those federal judges are dishonest. You sound very much like a zealot.
    All power corrupts, and once the system begins to corrupt, less you control it there's only downhill. Still, this is an issue of rights against government action and the unmitigated, uncontrolled, unrestricted, unconstrained data mining and aggregation of the government against the People is clearly a violation of rights and of restrained government.

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    Ummm...okay? No one is talking about that. You think you are. But you're a very confused young man, who's obviously unable to discern his opinion from fact.
    That is, in fact, your argument. We elected them and they act. Your argument never placed restriction upon their action, only that the sole input The People have is the vote and after that nothing. Make a better argument if you don't like it.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: The NSA's Reach Might Be Even Bigger Than We Thought

    Someone suggested banning private enterprise from snooping - which is what I opposed. I think companies should be free to do so - as long as they say they are doing it and I have the freedom to shop some where else.


    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Not sure whom that was addressed to if anyone, but I have no problem with what you described. It's quite different however than the National Spy Agency, FBI or any other alphabet agency doing the same to Americans who aren't guilty of crime. Sooner or latter Americans are going to deal with the infringement of their civil liberties. Or loose them for good.

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    Re: The NSA's Reach Might Be Even Bigger Than We Thought

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Government interference preventing the proper oversight by the People.



    All power corrupts, and once the system begins to corrupt, less you control it there's only downhill. Still, this is an issue of rights against government action and the unmitigated, uncontrolled, unrestricted, unconstrained data mining and aggregation of the government against the People is clearly a violation of rights and of restrained government.



    That is, in fact, your argument. We elected them and they act. Your argument never placed restriction upon their action, only that the sole input The People have is the vote and after that nothing. Make a better argument if you don't like it.
    You're clearly unable to deal with the facts that:

    #1- In a republic, the people vote for the people to make decisions.
    #2- That anyone that disagrees with your interpretation isn't corrupt or evil or whatever.
    #3- That your opinion is just that. It's not some Holy Writ from on high that makes you right.

    You need to deal with that, or you're going to very angry. Because the world isn't going to change for you. Secrets will stay secret. Deal with it.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

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    Re: The NSA's Reach Might Be Even Bigger Than We Thought

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    You're clearly unable to deal with the facts that:

    #1- In a republic, the people vote for the people to make decisions.
    #2- That anyone that disagrees with your interpretation isn't corrupt or evil or whatever.
    #3- That your opinion is just that. It's not some Holy Writ from on high that makes you right.

    You need to deal with that, or you're going to very angry. Because the world isn't going to change for you. Secrets will stay secret. Deal with it.
    There's no anger, just a desire to keep the Republic and to ensure freedom to the People. People vote for people to make decisions, but that doesn't mean those decisions are unlimited. Your second is correct, but it also doesn't mean that everyone who disagrees is innocent either. Thus it's useless platitude. My opinion is my own, I am free (for now) to express it and move towards ways to support it. Just because you like unregulated secret organizations and uncontrolled data aggregation doesn't mean everyone has to accept such a despotic system.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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