• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Corporations Aren't People

Commie said:
Which is why I don't shop at Walmart, or buy crap at McDonalds!
But, I am in a financial position to have more choices over how I use my dollars than many people who are poor and on the margins of society. And this reveals just how fake the facade is of so called freedumb-lovin libertarianism! Because, you know as well as I do (or you should), that the poor have less dollars to shop with...which greatly limits their shopping choices (I don't see welfare people shopping at Whole Foods), and they may have to use their limited dollars to buy crap made with sweatshop labour at Walmart, because the alternatives are out of their price range! While those who earn $100,000 and up, have even greater purchasing power. And, this reveals who has the freedom and who is trapped, after we transcend to libertarian nirvana. The libertarian dream is to have mass unemployment, so people are desperate for those walmart and mcdonalds jobs, and get payed so little that they can only afford to shop at walmart and for a treat: buy burgers at mcdonalds!
Click to expand...

You obviously dont know dick about libertarianism.
 
Harshaw said:
That's just . . . not true. There's plenty of prep which needs to be done. Have you ever worked food?
Click to expand...

Yes I have.

What prep does McDonalds do that In n Out does not?
 
Im at work. I will start a thread on the libertarian philosophy when i get home.
 
What if...? said:
Yes I have.

What prep does McDonalds do that In n Out does not?
Click to expand...

They have about 50-60 more products needing prepped that In-N-Out doesn't have. Even something as simple as laying out different kinds of buns makes a difference.
 
Phil_Osophy said:
Some people are more valuable than others, thats just a hard fact of life, wilbur.
Click to expand...

Indeed they are, and EVERYBODY knows that.

Some just think they are so valuable others are worthless.

NOBODY is REALLY thousands of times better than anybody else.
 
What if...? said:
Walmart pays about $8.50 average based on experience to start.

So $.75/hr over minimum. $340/week gross

In n Out $10.50. $2.75 over minimum. $420/wk gross.

A difference of $80/wk, $320/month.

Not exactly apples and apples.
Click to expand...

So you don't care that they are over the minimum wage... You are just concerned with them paying a "living wage". Well, neither company pays a "living wage".. So even your example fails at what you claim all businesses should be doing.

Besides which, you further undermine your argument by stating that in n out's pay structure is for college students and the company expects them to move out of the position when it is time for raising a family and earning a living.
 
Commie said:
Is that because a senate stacked with state-appointed senators would be continually gridlocked? I'm a little sketchy on how an unelected senate approves things. If it were impossible to get Citizen's United through the Senate, would that mean other legislation....maybe even most legislation would be similarly stonewalled, and die waiting for senate approval?
Click to expand...

then the senate was in states hands and the house in the peoples hands, all legislation in congress had to bring both the interest of the people and the interest of the states together for it to pass. This meant everyone's interest was heard, and debate on bills would be slow, and carefully debated before it ever became law.

Commie said:
It's worth noting that one of the great revelations of the discovery of how ALEC functions, is that the corporate financiers who get their lawyers together with invited politicians, for the purpose of presenting the politicos modeled legislation, concentrate more on state and local government; not the federal government! Before most of us became aware of how this game was played, it seemed a mystery that so many local governments across the USA were passing very similar legislation on topics from: privatizing prisons and public schools, to union-busting laws and even so called "Stand Your Ground" laws. Now, it's a mystery no longer! As the trail of money and influence can be traced back to the sources.
Click to expand...

the federal government is charged with only 18 powers per the constitution, all other powers are the states, the federal government [congress] has no authority in the life's. liberties and property of the American people, ..this from the founders ..federalist 45.

one of the results of democracy is faction or special interest, those that complain about big business in government, and calling for more democracy are in fact getting more big business in their government. to end the power of that big business, we must return to the structure created by the founders, republican government, and put an end to the power, rich elites, who use our government for their own gain.

Commie said:
How is democracy "at war" with individual rights? The subtle shift in rightwing rhetoric over the last 20 years against democracy...i.e. the constantly repeated refrain of right wing talking heads:'America is a representative republic, not a democracy,' shows the hand being played by libertarians and conservatives, that they don't really care about individual rights and freedoms and desires and all that claptrap! What the right cares about is MONEY. The right wants to replace democracy with dollarocracy, so those with more money are able to use their money more effectively to advance their own interests. And those who don't have as much money: Sad Day For You! And the tendency of capitalism to increase the gaps in income, is accelerated.
Click to expand...

in the U.S. every citizen has individual rights, however under democracy, there are no individual rights, rights are collective, they would come from the majority[majority rule], and that majority has the power to do anything, even change a constitution, they have the power to create or abolish rights, by giving the majority more rights and taking away rights from the minority.

since I am an individual and American I have unalienable rights under republican government, ,meaning no one or majority rule has the power to take away rights from me, or you, no matter how many people wish to do it.

when a nation is under democracy , the people have ALL DIRECT POWER, and if people have all direct power, this corrupts them, and they turn towards mob rule where the 51% dictate to the 49%.

the founders gave us republican government, of divided power, the people have 50% direct power and the states have 50%, ..this keeps power separated, so that no one single entity can have all power and become tyrannical.

under democracy elected representatives, instead of working for the people and the states [house and senate], start to work for those that will reward them with money, and helping them in the re-election, known as lobbyist, they buy our politicians, both in the house and senate through that lobbying. today Washington is filled with lobbyist getting legislation passed from both parts of congress which benefit them and not the people the politicians work for.....and why does this happen?

because the checks and balances put into the constitution by the founders has been removed by politicians...which prevented lobbyist from lobbying our senators, today because of senators being directed elected, they are not held accountable to their state legislature any longer as they used to be before the 17th, because the state legislature chose the senator then, and he worked for them, and protected their interest.

with the senate in the hands of the states, this provided a check on the federal government so it could not step outside of the constitution, and usurp state powers.

it is democracy, which is filled with faction/ special interest which allows our senators to be lobbied by big business, and benefit the wealthy., which is why repealing the 17th would put power back in the states, place a check on the federal government, and stop most of the lobbying in Washington.
 
Last edited:
Harshaw said:
The point is, you didn't actually answer the question.
Click to expand...

Go back, read the posts again.

I clearly said ignoring the "race to the bottom" could very well have consequences. Increasing, considerable wealth disparity has never ended well, historically. Choosing communism/socialism has been the choice before...
 
What if...? said:
Indeed they are, and EVERYBODY knows that.

Some just think they are so valuable others are worthless.

NOBODY is REALLY thousands of times better than anybody else.
Click to expand...

So what if some people think that?

And maybe they are, maybe they arent. Depends really.
 
What if...? said:
Go back, read the posts again.
Click to expand...

I did. He asked what you wanted to do about it. You made a snarky post about "doing nothing" and the consequences thereof.
 
What if...? said:
Go back, read the posts again.

I clearly said ignoring the "race to the bottom" could very well have consequences. Increasing, considerable wealth disparity has never ended well, historically. Choosing communism/socialism has been the choice before...
Click to expand...

And how will that change the worldwide rate of an engineer being $8/hr?
 
Harshaw said:
They have about 50-60 more products needing prepped that In-N-Out doesn't have. Even something as simple as laying out different kinds of buns makes a difference.
Click to expand...

No way they have 50-60 more different products, and most of those are simple variations. MAYBE five different buns. Maybe. Two kinds of onions. A couple kinds of cheese and sauces. Jack's variety is higher, but its all frozen.
 
Federalist said:
And how will that change the worldwide rate of an engineer being $8/hr?
Click to expand...

It won't. They would try tariffs or rent controls or some other nonsense.

Or outright revolution.

"Let them eat cake" is a terrible attitude, even if the quote isn't real.

Its "get a better job" these days.
 
Bob N said:
You're missing the point. Corporations do not have the right to speak for me collectively and say that it is a person -- a unit of one. If the owner wants to come out and say what he/she believes than fine -- just don't include the business as a whole because there will be dissent somewhere. :shrug:
Click to expand...

I am reminded of when both parties in Congress essentially did a shake down of the technology companies because they were not contributing to the members election funds or paying much attention to members of Congress at all. The tech companies corrected that of course.

If you want less influence of companies then what is needed is a more limited role of government so that both the government and its members and corporations have no incentive to do so.
 
Shadow Serious said:
I am reminded of when both parties in Congress essentially did a shake down of the technology companies because they were not contributing to the members election funds or paying much attention to members of Congress at all. The tech companies corrected that of course.

If you want less influence of companies then what is needed is a more limited role of government so that both the government and its members and corporations have no incentive to do so.
Click to expand...
You try telling that to both parties. Big business would fight the living daylights out of less government; those folks (business) fought to become a person; they never would relinquish it.
 
Harshaw said:
I did. He asked what you wanted to do about it. You made a snarky post about "doing nothing" and the consequences thereof.
Click to expand...

As a species we have to accept a few things:

The "market", and capitalism itself is a construct, a made thing, subject to modification as necessary to make it serve EVERYBODY and not just the ownership class.

People.are not 2x4s. As such, the "market" must modify its calculations.

Computers and the technologies that facilitate globalism have shifted power to the ownership class, mainly due to portability. This needs to be addressed.

Lots of things need to be done that will never be profitable. Declaring these jobs not worthy of pay needs to stop. Somebody has to clean the sewer plant screens. They should get more than minimum wage.

The need for food and shelter is innately coercive. Therefore, no employment contract is free of coercion. Doesn't matter that the employer is just taking advantage of "natural" coercion. Coercion is occurring. This needs to be accounted for.

None of these things need "communistic" solutions. Just a reasonable overhaul of capitalism. To make it work for everybody.

A rising tide should lift all boats at about the same RATE. If it isn't, and it isn't, it is appropriate to make changes to our made-up system so it is everybody's tool and not just that of the ownership class.

This is what I believe we SHOULD do. I don't believe our worlds true rulers will ever allow it.
 
apdst said:
The honchos at Enron went to priso, purdy much making Enron a person.
Click to expand...

Enron can never be a person. It can be granted privilege some of which may seem to mimic personhood but it can never have our right. Corporations are property and cannot possess rights.
 
What if...? said:
As a species we have to accept a few things:

The "market", and capitalism itself is a construct, a made thing, subject to modification as necessary to make it serve EVERYBODY and not just the ownership class.

People.are not 2x4s. As such, the "market" must modify its calculations.

Computers and the technologies that facilitate globalism have shifted power to the ownership class, mainly due to portability. This needs to be addressed.

Lots of things need to be done that will never be profitable. Declaring these jobs not worthy of pay needs to stop. Somebody has to clean the sewer plant screens. They should get more than minimum wage.

The need for food and shelter is innately coercive. Therefore, no employment contract is free of coercion. Doesn't matter that the employer is just taking advantage of "natural" coercion. Coercion is occurring. This needs to be accounted for.

None of these things need "communistic" solutions. Just a reasonable overhaul of capitalism. To make it work for everybody.

A rising tide should lift all boats at about the same RATE. If it isn't, and it isn't, it is appropriate to make changes to our made-up system so it is everybody's tool and not just that of the ownership class.

This is what I believe we SHOULD do. I don't believe our worlds true rulers will ever allow it.
Click to expand...

I would say the devil is in the details for all of that. It's easy to say; not so easy to come up with an actual workable plan.
 
What if...? said:
The need for food and shelter is innately coercive. Therefore, no employment contract is free of coercion.
Click to expand...

The need for food and shelter is innately coercive. Therefore, giving money to another person is coercing them.
 
Harshaw said:
McDonalds:

Full Menu Explorer :: McDonalds.com

In-n-Out:

Menu - In-N-Out Burger
Click to expand...

So after a quick perusal:

Two buns, two or three burger patties, two kinds of chicken, fish and the mcrib (and its bun, seasonally). Tortillas for wraps.

All of which comes pre-prepared. They also have a breakfast menu.

Still not seeing any real difference in labor at the franchise. McDonalds needs more storage space, inventory management. But In n Out cuts their own fries and soaks up the grease with towels, much more labor intensive, and I'm pretty sure they make their own patties in house. So that difference is pretty much a labor wash.

And McDonalds paid crappy wages BEFORE their menu was bigger than In n Outs. So any additional labor from their expanded menu hasn't been compensated anyway. "More" work, same minimum wage.

In the end, McDonalds has more combinations of the same handfull of ingredients, most pre-prepared at some factory. On-site prep labor isn't much different. They both slice tomatoes, prep lettuce(?), etc.

Can you point at things McDonalds does in prep at the franchise that In n Out doesn't? Something that eats 25% of what could be wages? I can't.
 
Harshaw said:
I would say the devil is in the details for all of that. It's easy to say; not so easy to come up with an actual workable plan.
Click to expand...

"We don't do these things because they are easy. We do them because they are hard..."

And the addicts say the first step to recovery is to admit you have a problem.

Most on your side of the argument refuse to acknowledge there are any issues at all.
 
What if...? said:
So after a quick perusal:

Two buns, two or three burger patties, two kinds of chicken, fish and the mcrib (and its bun, seasonally). Tortillas for wraps.

All of which comes pre-prepared. They also have a breakfast menu.

Still not seeing any real difference in labor at the franchise. McDonalds needs more storage space, inventory management. But In n Out cuts their own fries and soaks up the grease with towels, much more labor intensive, and I'm pretty sure they make their own patties in house. So that difference is pretty much a labor wash.

And McDonalds paid crappy wages BEFORE their menu was bigger than In n Outs. So any additional labor from their expanded menu hasn't been compensated anyway. "More" work, same minimum wage.

In the end, McDonalds has more combinations of the same handfull of ingredients, most pre-prepared at some factory. On-site prep labor isn't much different. They both slice tomatoes, prep lettuce(?), etc.

Can you point at things McDonalds does in prep at the franchise that In n Out doesn't? Something that eats 25% of what could be wages? I can't.
Click to expand...

:shrug: I guess if you don't want there to be a difference, there won't be for you. I was in. Now I'm out.
 
Harshaw said:
:shrug: I guess if you don't want there to be a difference, there won't be for you. I was in. Now I'm out.
Click to expand...

There is a difference.

More pre-packaged ingredients in more combinations.

NOT in franchise prep.

More storage and some kind of inventory system.

But the guys on the grill are only cooking a couple different burgers. Not preparing and cooking ten kinds of fish. Not preparing from scratch several sauces.

Almost everything comes ready to cook. there's more sauce bottles, but the sauce is made at a factory.

I honestly don't see where McDonalds franchises have all these extra expenses that preclude paying more. Its not like they're throwing out all the fish they don't sell today. Its almost all durable pre-packaged. So it isn't waste.

I'm reminded of a comedy bit:

Taco: tortilla beans meat cheese.

Burrito: tortilla beans meat cheese.

Tostada: tortilla beans meat cheese.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom