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Thread: Corporations Aren't People

  1. #591
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    Re: Corporations Aren't People

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    How so? Please provide some evidence for this claim.
    why are those who whine about corporate power the first people to want the government to have more power? its economic vandalism



  2. #592
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    Re: Corporations Aren't People

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    Wrong again! That's an issue of tax dollars being spent on a personal choice.
    Not agreeing, but a personal choice.. like if one wants to take BC or not?

    It's a joint venture. If the employee chooses NOT to participate in the employer-sponsored insurance plan, the business owner is not harmed. Thus, we're right back to my standing position: If the employer doesn't want to provide insurance to his employees under the law, pay the fine and be done with it!
    For the sake of argument, if employee chooses not to participate, you may be right..

    but, as already stated, both hiring and retention are improved when a company offers benefits. Not being able to offer the benefit (otherwise contradicting religious beliefs) is harming the company. paying the fine, does not make up for the harm to the employer's retention and hiring abilities. reduced retention and hiring is... is that not harm?

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    Re: Corporations Aren't People

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    why are those who whine about corporate power the first people to want the government to have more power? its economic vandalism
    That was your claim - and was unsupported with any evidence or fact. And so was your response asking for evidence.
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  4. #594
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    Re: Corporations Aren't People

    Quote Originally Posted by buck View Post
    1.)Being forced to pay for something that is against your religion, is being forced to violate your religion.
    2.) It is one of the reasons abortion is specifically excluded from federal funding.
    3.) The employer is purchasing and providing coverage to the employee. Not receiving free birth control paid for by another, is simply not a violation of individual liberty of the employee.
    4.)Doing something different then other employees is not a violation of liberty. Some employees prior to the ACA, had to seek BC outside of their plan. Some didn't. Some employees are paid differently then other employees. There are many things that some employees of one firm have to do differently then other employees of another firm. Just because they have do do "something different", is not a violation of individual liberty.

    5.) The SC will ultimately decide. I suspect it will be 5-4 decision whichever way. We'll see shortly.
    1.) no body is being forced to buy BC, repeating this fallacy doesnt make it true
    2.) no its not because its a fallacy and this has nothgin to do with abortion laws, please stay on topic. Nobody is being forced
    3.) yes the employer is buying COVERAGE, thats it.

    if the employer now removes something from that overage it is being removed on the employers RELIGION and not the employees hence clearly violating individual liberty

    if you disagree please use any fact you think you have to support it, simply answer this question

    if employees at hobby lobby get to choose whats in the employees COVERAGE, what will that be based on?
    after that what else can they choose?

    the fact is it would infringe on individual liberty

    4.) good thing i didnt say that alone was so that strawman completely fails

    what would be is interfering with peoples, OTHER PEOPLES, medical coverage based on ones own religion. How could anybody logical ever justify that, what gives me the right to choose whats in your coverage? thats laughable and theres no logical or factual backing for something so absurd.

    5.) yes they will and id bet the decided that one person doesn't get to decided another coverage based on their own religion

    why would there ever be justification for that?

    should Hobby lobby get to decided if vasectomy and Tubal Ligation are covered in anyway either? what about coverage for unmarried pregnant moms or bastard kids?

    is stupendous to think this is legit in anyway.
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    Re: Corporations Aren't People

    Quote Originally Posted by AGENT J View Post
    1.) no body is being forced to buy BC, repeating this fallacy doesn't make it true
    Will insurance be more expensive if it covers BC? Of course. The pills are free for the employee, so they are not purchasing it. The cost comes in increased premium, of which the employer is providing a (big) portion.

    4.) what would be is interfering with peoples, OTHER PEOPLES, medical coverage based on ones own religion. How could anybody logical ever justify that, what gives me the right to choose whats in your coverage? thats laughable and theres no logical or factual backing for something so absurd.
    The difference between BC and other medical procedures, is that BC is a choice and not, in most cases, medically necessary to correct abnormal conditions. In the cases where BC is needed for medical treatment (fibroids, etc) insurance companies are, and always have been, required to cover. To force an employer to purchase the BC for employees when it is not medically necessary is the issue. Employer's have many choices as to what is included in medical coverage (at least related to non-medically necessary treatments) of their employees for whatever reason they want. so... *Shrug*

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    Re: Corporations Aren't People

    Quote Originally Posted by buck View Post
    1.)Will insurance be more expensive if it covers BC? Of course.
    2.)The pills are free for the employee, so they are not purchasing it.
    3.) The cost comes in increased premium, of which the employer is providing a (big) portion.
    4.) The difference between BC and other medical procedures, is that BC is a choice and not, in most cases, medically necessary to correct abnormal conditions. In the cases where BC is needed for medical treatment (fibroids, etc) insurance companies are, and always have been, required to cover. To force an employer to purchase the BC for employees when it is not medically necessary is the issue. Employer's have many choices as to what is included in medical coverage (at least related to non-medically necessary treatments) of their employees for whatever reason they want. so... *Shrug*
    1.) meaningless to the discussion
    2.) no they are not they are buying medical coverage

    are you claiming that hobby lobby is buying everything and anything under the coverage then? thats an insane claim see previous posts

    3.) also meaningless to the discussion

    4.) all the things i named could also be deemed choices so your answer completely fails

    so i ask all my questions again

    A.) if employees at hobby lobby get to choose whats in the employees COVERAGE, what will that be based on?
    after that what else can they choose?

    B.) what gives me the right to choose whats in your coverage?

    C.) should Hobby lobby get to decided if vasectomy and Tubal Ligation are covered in anyway either?

    D.)what about coverage for unmarried pregnant moms or bastard kids?

    there is ZERO justification, logic or facts to support ME deciding what YOUR coverage is
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    Re: Corporations Aren't People

    Quote Originally Posted by AGENT J View Post
    1.) meaningless to the discussion
    Not really. If the insurance is more expensive, someone is paying for it. *hint* those paying premium (the employer).
    2.) no they are not they are buying medical coverage
    Who is paying for the medical coverage to cover BC? The individual paying the premium. Who is paying a large portion of the premium? The employer. So, yes. The employer is being forced to provide free BC to their employees or harm their business by not providing medical coverage.

    are you claiming that hobby lobby is buying everything and anything under the coverage then? thats an insane claim see previous posts
    Hobby Lobby (HL) is buying the expected usage of all medical needs covered under their plan. The expected results can be / are modified based on actual losses. So, the insurance company can (and does) modify rates based on actual usage. When free BC is offered and some of HL's employees are expected make use of that new benefit, Hobby Lobby's premiums will be more - hence they are paying for BC for their employees.

    4.) all the things i named could also be deemed choices so your answer completely fails
    Not sure what you named, but if they are medically necessary to prevent abnormal medical issues, they are not defined as choice. Again, BC for treatment of a medical condition has to be covered.

    A.) if employees at hobby lobby get to choose whats in the employees COVERAGE, what will that be based on?
    after that what else can they choose?
    It's not up to the employee to make a choice of what is in their coverage. The employer makes the choices when he contracts with the insurance company. Part of that contract is to sign and pay the premium. There are many choices that an employer makes when contracting with the insurance company. I assume you believe this is wrong too?

    B.) what gives me the right to choose whats in your coverage?
    When you are providing it to me, you have the right to make certain choices. You can only make choices on things that are not medically necessary.

    D.)what about coverage for unmarried pregnant moms or bastard kids?
    Nope. If they offer insurance to families, bastard kids of the employees would also be covered. If they offer coverage to employees, they would also have to offer coverage to employees that are unmarried and pregnant. This is completely irrelevant to the discussion of a medically unnecessary (in most cases) BC pill.

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    Re: Corporations Aren't People

    Quote Originally Posted by AGENT J View Post
    C.) should Hobby lobby get to decided if vasectomy and Tubal Ligation are covered in anyway either?
    Forgot to answer one. Meant to add back to my original reply, and forgot.

    Not all insurance companies cover those two procedures. So, yes. The employer would have the choice when purchasing insurance.

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    Re: Corporations Aren't People

    Quote Originally Posted by buck View Post
    1.)Not really. If the insurance is more expensive, someone is paying for it. *hint* those paying premium (the employer).

    2.)Who is paying for the medical coverage to cover BC? The individual paying the premium. Who is paying a large portion of the premium? The employer. So, yes. The employer is being forced to provide free BC to their employees or harm their business by not providing medical coverage.



    3.)Hobby Lobby (HL) is buying the expected usage of all medical needs covered under their plan. The expected results can be / are modified based on actual losses. So, the insurance company can (and does) modify rates based on actual usage. When free BC is offered and some of HL's employees are expected make use of that new benefit, Hobby Lobby's premiums will be more - hence they are paying for BC for their employees.



    4.)Not sure what you named, but if they are medically necessary to prevent abnormal medical issues, they are not defined as choice. Again, BC for treatment of a medical condition has to be covered.



    5.)It's not up to the employee to make a choice of what is in their coverage. The employer makes the choices when he contracts with the insurance company. Part of that contract is to sign and pay the premium. There are many choices that an employer makes when contracting with the insurance company. I assume you believe this is wrong too?



    6.) When you are providing it to me, you have the right to make certain choices. You can only make choices on things that are not medically necessary.



    7.)Nope. If they offer insurance to families, bastard kids of the employees would also be covered. If they offer coverage to employees, they would also have to offer coverage to employees that are unmarried and pregnant. This is completely irrelevant to the discussion of a medically unnecessary (in most cases) BC pill.
    1.) yes really its meaningless the price of the coverage is meaningless to the discussion it has ZERO barring.
    2.) repeating this lie will never make it true lol they are paying (depending on the company, so pay a lot some pay very little) for COVERAGE, period.

    ALso the employer isnt being forced to do anything, they are choosing to run a business which has nothing to do with religion.

    3.) nope just coverage, all the double talk in the world wont change this and you didnt answer my question either you talked around it, ill ask it AGAIN.
    are you claiming that hobby lobby is buying everything and anything under the coverage then? thats an insane claim see previous posts

    and the reason why i ask this is because i could point out other things that "supposedly" impact religion

    4.) its two post back this is just another dodge so your point is moot.
    but i simply re-asked again below, oh wait YOU SKIPPED IT!, i wonder why? why did you skip the question "C.) should Hobby lobby get to decided if vasectomy and Tubal Ligation are covered in anyway either?"

    doesnt matter ill keep asking thes questions till you answer them

    5.) ANSWER THE QUESTION lol
    if employers at hobby lobby get to choose whats in the employees COVERAGE, what will that be based on?

    6.) more double talk and basing things on your subjective opinion and no facts, i will ask again

    what gives me the right to choose whats in your coverage? (not the packages i buy, what is in your coverage)

    7.) my religion doesnt allow me to condone that though? i cant condone unwed mothers, premarital sex and bastard children

    so no its 100% relevant because it shines light on the completely BS religious argument

    you havent given one logical or factual reason why i should have the right to decide whats in your coverage based on my religion and ignoring yours and your individual liberty and rights, not one

    to make it easier ill repeat all the questions:

    A.) are you claiming that hobby lobby is buying everything and anything under the coverage then? thats an insane claim see previous posts about examples
    B.) should Hobby lobby get to decided if vasectomy and Tubal Ligation are covered in anyway either?
    C.) if employers at hobby lobby get to choose whats in the employees COVERAGE, what will that be based on?
    D.) what gives me the right to choose whats in your coverage? (not the packages i buy, what is in your coverage)
    E.) my religion doesn't allow me to condone that though? i cant condone unwed mothers, premarital sex and bastard children so why should i have to buy coverage that covers anything to do with that? i mean they can just buy coverage else where right?
    F.) me religion doesn't allow me to condone other gods, why should i have to buy coverage that covers people of another religion, im condoning their sins? i mean they can just buy coverage else where right?

    sorry its absurd to think HL's religion can be forced on their employees coverage
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    Re: Corporations Aren't People

    Quote Originally Posted by buck View Post
    1.)Forgot to answer one. Meant to add back to my original reply, and forgot.

    2.)Not all insurance companies cover those two procedures.
    3.) So, yes. The employer would have the choice when purchasing insurance.
    1.) i already blasted you for skipping it, guess i have to tak it back not lol
    2.) wasnt my question nor does it matter
    3.) so you think HL should be able to not cover those things based on religion, thats the question, stop talking around them.
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