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Thread: Corporations Aren't People

  1. #51
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    Re: Corporations Aren't People

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Are the people that run the corporation people? Do they not have the right to use their property in the way they see fit, to associate with who they desire, and provide services in the way they see fit? Oh right, for some reason they are lesser beings. Funny how that works. I find liberals are entirely missing the point. In order to protect the rights of people businesses can not be the slaves of the population as a whole.
    The individuals are individuals and may spend their personal money as they see fit. Public corporations are owned by many people, the shareholders. So saying that a public corp manned by a small board and that board making decisions for political spending is somewhat equivalent to the individual making similar decisions is a bit misleading.

    In the end corporations are property and nothing more.
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    Re: Corporations Aren't People

    Quote Originally Posted by grip View Post
    All businesses, clubs, groups, organizations, charities and churches all have different rights and obligations than individuals under the law. Which I think is appropriate for their existence, though corporations have too much control over regulations and legislation thru lobbying and campaign contributions.

    Mega-Intl-Corporations have become a cover like the gov for their operators to do many misdeeds. They say they're fair and in the name of progress we can't live without them, when in truth they've become a cancer and leech. Anything too big to fail has too much power in our society.

    All that they do could be done better by a handful of smaller companies competing for our business.
    So the NLRB just came out and said it's OK for the UFCW to hand out $50 gift cards to anyone who protests Walmart. If the government is OK with allowing that to go on then shouldn't they also allow Walmart to spend money to present their side of the discussion?

    Labor Relations Board OKs unions paying people to protest Walmart | WashingtonExaminer.com

  3. #53
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    Re: Corporations Aren't People

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob N View Post
    Oops! Maybe I left out stockholders and what they receive once everything is paid.
    You are ignoring/avoiding the fact that corporations pay income taxes. No, I'm not referring to taxes stockholders pay on their dividends or capital gains. No, I'm not referring to the taxes employees pay on their personal incomes. I'm talking about the corporate income tax, which is paid by the corporation, not individuals.

    Gosh, why could you possibly be wanting to avoid that?
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    Re: Corporations Aren't People

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    The individuals are individuals and may spend their personal money as they see fit. Public corporations are owned by many people, the shareholders. So saying that a public corp manned by a small board and that board making decisions for political spending is somewhat equivalent to the individual making similar decisions is a bit misleading.

    In the end corporations are property and nothing more.
    I suppose, but in that case it's still telling the shareholders how to run their business and their property or restricting their right to speak as a group. I don't think it changes anything really.

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    Re: Corporations Aren't People

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob N View Post
    I found this opinion piece by Harold Meyerson to be spot on concerning corporations being brought in to the world of personhood.

    Is it alright for corporations to speak for their employees on all matters as a collective? I don't think so.

    Also consider this: Where does this corporations-are-people business start and stop? Note the excerpt from Meyerson's piece:

    Harold Meyerson makes one think about personhood, don't you think? What about wars? People are drafted and go to wars, why not include corporations? Corporations get to itemize a lot of things on their taxes more than the average Joe or Jane. Why do they get to be a special person with extraordinary fiscal relationships with the state?

    Yes, I think Scalia is looking to see how he is going to open this can of worms -- real carefully.
    Corporations are made up of people. Under the 1st amendment you and other people have the right to peaceably assemble.Groups of people have the right to free speech,religion petition grievances and freedom of the press.Last I checked there is no one at a time in the first time clause in the first amendment.
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  6. #56
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    Re: Corporations Aren't People

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob N View Post
    Exactly Luther. Chances are even two people are not going to agree with each other, so why should one person automatically speak for the other? And even if they all agreed, I would still consider it a collective decision and not a decision of one.
    The corporation is not technically speaking for you, it's speaking for the corporation.

    Hersey's Corp. is fundamentally interested in politics, sugar policy, elected officials, because those decisions are tied directly to the company's business, it's survival. The union for Hersey's Corp. is interested in politics, worker policy, elected officials, because those decisions are tied directly to the union's business and it's survival. Those two corporations, Hersey's and its union, are allowed to make political statements and donations on behalf of their respective corporation personhoods, because it affects the interest of that corporation -- the collective group of those persons.

    Same goes for religious organizations. Their religious beliefs and actions of the organization are generally protected, because it affects the interest of the religious organization.

    What atheists like me try to do is say that, no, Hobby Lobby cannot refuse coverage for birth control for employees, because birth control has no effect upon its business. More importantly it violates the individual rights of the employees and has nothing to do with Hobby Lobby or its personhood. The owners of Hobby Lobby will have to first prove to the Supreme Court that somehow this birth control issue has any relevancy to the corporation.
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    Re: Corporations Aren't People

    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    The difference is that if you organize a group for a given purpose and appoint a spokesman for that group then it's assumed that all members of that group are a party to whatever message the group presents. Individual members of the group are free to disagree or disassociate themselves but they have still agreed to appoint the spokesman.
    There again it depends on the rules of the collective.

    Look. What I'm going to try to convey here is an analogy to the Hobby Lobby matter.

    In a business there are many people with different viewpoints on things that have nothing to do with the business. (the way someone votes; what a person believes in from a religious perspective; etc; ) How can a business claim to say that it speaks for all it's employees on a religious matter when there will be plenty of people that would disagree with that employer?

    And this employer wishes for that decision to be considered as an opinion from one human being? That's like two human beings with two different wants -- one wants to go bowling while the other wants to go fishing -- coming in to conflict. Now through some incredible means you were to merge those two human beings in to one, (think Sci-Fi here ) you would have one entity not knowing if it wanted to pick-up a bowling ball or a fishing pole constantly, and that enity would never make it out the door.
    "The end of democracy and the defeat of the American Revolution will occur when government falls into the hands of lending institutions and moneyed incorporations." `Thomas Jefferson

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    Re: Corporations Aren't People

    Quote Originally Posted by brothern View Post
    What atheists like me try to do is say that, no, Hobby Lobby cannot refuse coverage for birth control for employees, because birth control has no effect upon its business. More importantly it violates the individual rights of the employees and has nothing to do with Hobby Lobby or its personhood. The owners of Hobby Lobby will have to first prove to the Supreme Court that somehow this birth control issue has any relevancy to the corporation.
    So the very fact that hobby lobby disagrees with the notion of providing healthcare coverage for birth control is of no material to you because it has no effect on their business? In what way does that makes sense? Do they not have to provide the service to their employees? How does that not have a direct effect on their business?

    I don't even know what you mean by individual rights of the employees since i can't even begin to imagine what rights would be on the table for them.

  9. #59
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    Re: Corporations Aren't People

    Quote Originally Posted by brothern View Post
    The corporation is not technically speaking for you, it's speaking for the corporation.

    Hersey's Corp. is fundamentally interested in politics, sugar policy, elected officials, because those decisions are tied directly to the company's business, it's survival. The union for Hersey's Corp. is interested in politics, worker policy, elected officials, because those decisions are tied directly to the union's business and it's survival. Those two corporations, Hersey's and its union, are allowed to make political statements and donations on behalf of their respective corporation personhoods, because it affects the interest of that corporation -- the collective group of those persons.

    Same goes for religious organizations. Their religious beliefs and actions of the organization are generally protected, because it affects the interest of the religious organization.

    What atheists like me try to do is say that, no, Hobby Lobby cannot refuse coverage for birth control for employees, because birth control has no effect upon its business. More importantly it violates the individual rights of the employees and has nothing to do with Hobby Lobby or its personhood. The owners of Hobby Lobby will have to first prove to the Supreme Court that somehow this birth control issue has any relevancy to the corporation.
    What you just described is a collective, not a person. You can't have it both ways.
    "The end of democracy and the defeat of the American Revolution will occur when government falls into the hands of lending institutions and moneyed incorporations." `Thomas Jefferson

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    Re: Corporations Aren't People

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Corporations are made up of people. Under the 1st amendment you and other people have the right to peaceably assemble.Groups of people have the right to free speech,religion petition grievances and freedom of the press.Last I checked there is no one at a time in the first time clause in the first amendment.
    That's right -- people. Not as a person.
    "The end of democracy and the defeat of the American Revolution will occur when government falls into the hands of lending institutions and moneyed incorporations." `Thomas Jefferson

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