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Thread: Corporations Aren't People

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    Re: Corporations Aren't People

    Quote Originally Posted by AGENT J View Post
    in general and in most cases individual rights > business/corporations

    its just that simple

    public realm = public rules and they are the same for us all, hobby Lobby doesn't get to have "special" rights
    I agree when the effect is that a right of the individual is negatively affected. However, in this case, respecting the 1st amendment rights of the business owner and allowing them freedom to exercise religion, does not have a negative effect on the rights of the individual. Free birth control paid by others is not a right that an individual should expect or should result in removing the rights from a business owner.

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    Re: Corporations Aren't People

    Quote Originally Posted by buck View Post
    I guess if you completely ignore the 1st amendment and not infringing on religious beliefs.
    You may be missing the point about privately held beliefs due to the subjective nature of moral values. Our supreme law of the land is more supreme than even Ten Commandment of Religion.

    No one is requiring participation only the opportunity of participation. It is not the same. In any case, why deny and disparage Individual Liberty to your fellow, secular and temporal citizens in the several States who also have a 1st Amendment.

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    Re: Corporations Aren't People

    Quote Originally Posted by buck View Post
    I agree when the effect is that a right of the individual is negatively affected.
    1.) However, in this case, respecting the 1st amendment rights of the business owner and allowing them freedom to exercise religion, does not have a negative effect on the rights of the individual.

    2.) Free birth control paid by others is not a right that an individual should expect or should result in removing the rights from a business owner.
    1.) the business owners 1st amendment rights and freedom of religion is not impacted, nobody forced the owner to play in the public realm and have a public access business which has nothing to do with religion.
    It was their CHOICE and we all must play by the same rules, not have special rule for some.

    If Hobby Lobby was a "CHURCH" id support them 100% but they are not so they must play by the same rules as everybody else its that simple

    2.) again the business owner didnt have any rights removed he chose to open up a business

    the "negative affect" argument is meaningless as its subjective, who gets to decided that? its better if we just all play by the same rules and not make special rules for hobby lobby otherwise whats next? wheres the list of religious believes that can and can not be forced on others?

    No thanks, same rules for everybody since this is the public realm and its a public business.
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    Re: Corporations Aren't People

    Quote Originally Posted by buck View Post
    I agree when the effect is that a right of the individual is negatively affected. However, in this case, respecting the 1st amendment rights of the business owner and allowing them freedom to exercise religion, does not have a negative effect on the rights of the individual. Free birth control paid by others is not a right that an individual should expect or should result in removing the rights from a business owner.
    I remain unconvinced that the corporate owner's religious rights are being infringed on here. The owner can still practice whatever religion they want. Just because a law makes birth control part of a benefit package they negotiate for in good faith via free market mechanisms does not mean they suffer any personal harm. What you and others continue to put forward is a false argument of financial harm where again I say they are no more put upon in complying w/the PPACA than any other corporation. Their choices as corporate owners remain the same as all other corporations: provide insurance to their employees regardless of policy content or pay a tax penalty. You add birth contol into the mix to make it personal and weaving in religious freedom for that special touch.

    One thing needs to be made clear: Justice Scalia got it wrong when he said in his ruling statement in support of Citizens United that free speech was not limited to people. It IS! The Preamble makes it clear that our founging document was intended to protect the rights of "We, the People" against government. Nowhere does it say "protect the rights of corporations, unions, associations or organizations whether for-profit or non-profit. What the Right-Wing activist justices did was make a ruling on both ideological and economic grounds.
    Last edited by Objective Voice; 12-06-13 at 03:02 PM.
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    Re: Corporations Aren't People

    Quote Originally Posted by danielpalos View Post
    No one is requiring participation only the opportunity of participation. It is not the same. In any case, why deny and disparage Individual Liberty to your fellow, secular and temporal citizens in the several States who also have a 1st Amendment.
    The business owner is being made to decide between violating their religious beliefs or hurting their business. Individual liberty for the employee is not being damaged in anyway. If the employer does not purchase it for them, they can purchase it for themselves. Individual liberty does not include having someone else purchase BC for you. That is the opposite of individual liberty.

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    Re: Corporations Aren't People

    Quote Originally Posted by AGENT J View Post
    in general and in most cases individual rights > business/corporations

    its just that simple

    public realm = public rules and they are the same for us all, hobby Lobby doesn't get to have "special" rights
    What you have stated sounds good, but it is not true. Corporations have huge rights advantages. For example, JPMorgan Chase steals billions of dollars and gets a $23 billion tax deductible fine and no jail or criminal proceedings. It's so severe that they might make JP Morgan give back 10% of what they stole. Now, how about you go ahead and steal a few billion dollars and see what happens to you. Nuclear waste, wholly owned by your friendly nuke utility and it's gonna be hot for half a million years and that Nuke Corporation can file bankruptcy when liabilities exceed assets. Does it require a rocket scientist to deduce what will happen next. It's about money and profit, not liability and responsibility. Superfund sites, CO2, agent orange, DU, thalidomide, and the list is endless. This is why they should not have equal rights or personhood, unless they can legalize responsibility to address liability..

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    Re: Corporations Aren't People

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveFagan View Post
    1.)What you have stated sounds good, but it is not true. Corporations have huge rights advantages. For example, JPMorgan Chase steals billions of dollars and gets a $23 billion tax deductible fine and no jail or criminal proceedings. It's so severe that they might make JP Morgan give back 10% of what they stole. Now, how about you go ahead and steal a few billion dollars and see what happens to you. Nuclear waste, wholly owned by your friendly nuke utility and it's gonna be hot for half a million years and that Nuke Corporation can file bankruptcy when liabilities exceed assets. Does it require a rocket scientist to deduce what will happen next. It's about money and profit, not liability and responsibility. Superfund sites, CO2, agent orange, DU, thalidomide, and the list is endless. This is why they should not have equal rights or personhood, unless they can legalize responsibility to address liability..
    not sure what i said wasnt true because i agree with everything you said

    in the end cooperation are not people

    but i see what direction you took it


    you are saying they do have "special rights" already because of how the law doesnt punish them like they would you and me and i agree

    my special rights i was referring to were along the lines of discrimination and religious freedom, i should have been more specific.
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    Re: Corporations Aren't People

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Are the people that run the corporation people? Do they not have the right to use their property in the way they see fit, to associate with who they desire, and provide services in the way they see fit? Oh right, for some reason they are lesser beings. Funny how that works. I find liberals are entirely missing the point. In order to protect the rights of people businesses can not be the slaves of the population as a whole.
    I'm fine with that. But then shouldn't the owners of a corporation then be responsible for its debt? After all they are the "people" behind said corporation.

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    Re: Corporations Aren't People

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Are the people that run the corporation people? Do they not have the right to use their property in the way they see fit, to associate with who they desire, and provide services in the way they see fit? Oh right, for some reason they are lesser beings. Funny how that works. I find liberals are entirely missing the point. In order to protect the rights of people businesses can not be the slaves of the population as a whole.
    Thought this was worth a view:

    Watch The Daily Show definitively prove that corporations are not people

    This time, Stewart summed up the fines these banks are paying for their lucrative wrongdoing in his best Brooklyn mobster voice: "I'm sorry I committed systemic fraud for 10 years. How about I give you a cut of it?" The mantra in white-collar banking, he added, is "Don't do the crime if you can't pay the nominal fine."

    But banks aren't the only bad actors in the corporate world. Stewart pointed out a recent $2 billion fine Johnson & Johnson paid to settle charges they bribed doctors to prescribe useless drugs to the elderly, the disabled, and infants — "You're not even allowed to do that in Grand Theft Auto!" he protested.

    Watch The Daily Show definitively prove that corporations are not people - The Week

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Corporations Aren't People

    Quote Originally Posted by What if...? View Post
    "We don't do these things because they are easy. We do them because they are hard..."
    A quote entirely inapplicable to anything in this thread.


    And the addicts say the first step to recovery is to admit you have a problem.

    Most on your side of the argument refuse to acknowledge there are any issues at all.
    What "side" of the "argument" is that?
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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