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Thread: Corporations Aren't People

  1. #541
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    Re: Corporations Aren't People

    Quote Originally Posted by danielpalos View Post
    I believe artificial Persons have no basis to care about the subjective value of morals. Why not simply require a Standard, and let religious authorities claim only true believers should abstain.
    I believe that the owner of the business is not artificial and shouldn't be required to sacrifice his religious beliefs.

    I agree fully with the second sentence. Only the believers of that religion should feel the need to abstain. Not forcing an employer to provide BC to his employees does not contradict that. the company is not, and can not, tell the employee not to use BC.

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    Re: Corporations Aren't People

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil_Osophy View Post
    Why should anyone pay a penalty for not buying a service from a private business???
    Ask yourself that same question as it applies to auto insurance. Why should anyone be required to pay a fine for not having auto insurance?

    Same answer applies: Because it's the law! A driver of his own private vehicle who chooses not to buy auto insurance in affect has the exact same problem as the owner of a corporation who doesn't want to provide health insurance on religious (moral) grounds for his employees. Both are subject to a financial penalty - fine (auto)/tax penalty(business owner) if they don't obey the law that applies. The only thing that makes both situations different is profit! Nonetheless, in either case your individual right to NOT purchase a service from a private business is still taken away from you by law.
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    Re: Corporations Aren't People

    Quote Originally Posted by Commie View Post
    On the contrary; I know too much about libertarianism! It's a sham created to provide the illusion of offering freedom, while what it offers, is the freedom of the already wealthy and privileged to expand their wealth and their control over taxation, trade and other government policies. Libertarianism would not have grown so influential, based on the funding of rich libertarians like David and Charles Koch, if it wasn't for the fact that our modern personal technologies...beginning with television, and increasingly so with all of the new, handheld devices, lead younger people to both have delusions of ego and their own self-importance in the world, while encouraging increasing isolation and inability to interact with people in real life....facebook friends are not real friends for example!

    And, when it comes to media messaging, we live in a world now, where political opinions from the extreme right are considered part of the mainstream, while advocating nationalizing banking or essential industries is no longer allowed in MSM...either is any direct criticism of capitalism. You may notice that some mainstream liberals are allowed to advocate on behalf of social programs, environmental rules and regulations, and even raising taxes on the rich, BUT, as soon as a reporter or public commentator criticizes the system itself, and how capitalism makes people behave worse (i.e. Black Friday riots) and the lives of most people more unsatisfying, then they are effectively blacklisted from so called "liberal" mainstream media. A few examples: Chris Hedges, Cornell West, Noam Chomsky...after years in the public spotlight, try to find any of them invited on the Rachel Maddow Show or similar acceptable liberal programming.

    The shift in the political mainstream thought goes unnoticed by most people under 40, but anyone over 50 can see a huge shift in what is considered mainstream thought today.
    So..yeah you know nothing of aggregate libertarian philosophy and seem to be equating it to anarchy. Chomsky was more an anarchist than most libertarians.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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    Re: Corporations Aren't People

    Quote Originally Posted by buck View Post
    The harm is in the government telling the company that they can not offer the insurance w/o violating their religious beliefs - there is a benefit in a company offering benefits beyond the simple up front cost and the company is prevented from taking advantage.

    Paying a penalty or increasing the pay of the employee, so they can choose their own benefits if they are so inclined, is not the same and does not have the same benefit in attracting or keeping quality employees.
    Don't convolute the issue; we're not discussing hiring practises. Therefore, your last statement doesn't apply.

    As far as the moral damage to the employer for providing health care to their employees where such policies are in conflict with their religious beliefs, he's no more "damanged" than he would be if he had to pay a fine for polluting the water supply. In the course of doing business, laws of man may conflict with his moral and/or religious beliefs. In this case, the business owner is no more or less harmed than the next guy who himself may be a business owner. And while I do understand your argument, I don't believe the business owner (Hobby Lobby) will have standing in this case mainly because as I've previously stated, the owner has two choices under the law: provide the insurance or pay a penalty. Furthermore, since the business community (corporations) wanted health insurance as a benefit to lure quality employees, they're stuck with this double-edged sword unless and until the PPACA is repealed or significantly modified.
    "A fair exchange ain't no robbery." Tupac Shakur w/Digital Underground

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    Re: Corporations Aren't People

    Quote Originally Posted by buck View Post
    I believe that the owner of the business is not artificial and shouldn't be required to sacrifice his religious beliefs.

    I agree fully with the second sentence. Only the believers of that religion should feel the need to abstain. Not forcing an employer to provide BC to his employees does not contradict that. the company is not, and can not, tell the employee not to use BC.
    Not sacrificing religious beliefs doesn't include imposing them on others.

  6. #546
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    Re: Corporations Aren't People

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    So..yeah you know nothing of aggregate libertarian philosophy and seem to be equating it to anarchy. Chomsky was more an anarchist than most libertarians.
    Anarchism is an irrelevant ideology of a small group of intellectuals who believe they can achieve their goals without using or dealing with the state or getting involved with the political system. I think the failure of the vast majority of Occupy movements illustrates the limits of anarchism! As soon as the state puts its boot down on anarchists, the movement dissolves and evaporates.

    I can agree with Chomsky on a lot of his views, but he has been tolerated by the established academia and monied interests precisely because they know that he and his followers have no theory for how to actually change the system.
    Last edited by Commie; 12-04-13 at 03:27 PM.

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    Re: Corporations Aren't People

    Quote Originally Posted by Commie View Post
    Anarchism is an irrelevant ideology of a small group of intellectuals who believe they can achieve their goals without using or dealing with the state or getting involved with the political system. I think the failure of the vast majority of Occupy movements illustrates the limits of anarchism! As soon as the state puts its boot down on anarchists, the movement dissolves and evaporates.

    I can agree with Chomsky on a lot of his views, but he has been tolerated by the established academia and monied interests precisely because they know that he and his followers have no theory for how to actually change the system.
    Well way to not address anything, but whatever.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Corporations Aren't People

    Quote Originally Posted by danielpalos View Post
    Not sacrificing religious beliefs doesn't include imposing them on others.
    The imposition would be in forcing someone else to pay for something you want against their religious beliefs. Deciding not to pay for something someone else wants is not an imposing religious beliefs on anyone.

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    Re: Corporations Aren't People

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    Don't convolute the issue; we're not discussing hiring practises. Therefore, your last statement doesn't apply.

    As far as the moral damage to the employer for providing health care to their employees where such policies are in conflict with their religious beliefs, he's no more "damanged" than he would be if he had to pay a fine for polluting the water supply. In the course of doing business, laws of man may conflict with his moral and/or religious beliefs. In this case, the business owner is no more or less harmed than the next guy who himself may be a business owner. And while I do understand your argument, I don't believe the business owner (Hobby Lobby) will have standing in this case mainly because as I've previously stated, the owner has two choices under the law: provide the insurance or pay a penalty. Furthermore, since the business community (corporations) wanted health insurance as a benefit to lure quality employees, they're stuck with this double-edged sword unless and until the PPACA is repealed or significantly modified.
    Hobby Lobby has already been given standing in the case. And, despite your opinion, it is harmful to the employer to tell them they can't offer a benefit to allow them to hire and retain employees without going against their religion.

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    Re: Corporations Aren't People

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Well way to not address anything, but whatever.
    Then, why did you bring up Chomsky and anarchism?
    To me, trying to figure out how a society works under a leftist version of libertarianism is like nailing jello to the wall!
    Like right wing libertarians, the small left wing version expects people to act of their own accord in a way that the theorists would desire. So, in the left version of libertarianism, no system is needed to prevent hoarding, hierarchies or concentrations of power.

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