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Thread: Iran: White House Lying About Details of Nuke Deal

  1. #141
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    Re: Iran: White House Lying About Details of Nuke Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by washunut View Post
    Has the administration responded?
    I don't think so. The contradictions between the white house's release, Kerry's comment and of course the Iranian release are glaring and public enough that it would have warranted some official response, so the silence is bizarre.

  2. #142
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    Re: Iran: White House Lying About Details of Nuke Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Ad Sourcinem is a fallacy when you refuse to detail why the presentation of facts are incorrect.

    For example, if my response to this had been "oh well Dezaad is an idiot", that would be me choosing to attack the presenter of information rather than the information itself - it would have been a fallacy.
    It wouldn't have been a fallacy at all for you to say that. It is perfectly valid to be skeptical of presenters of information when the information being presented is a point or points of fact, and to attack if the presenter is found wanting. I would have responded "You don't need to believe me, believe what such and such credible source says about the nature of that fallacy".

    Had anyone bothered to check the facts of the case, they would have seen that the facts as reported were indeed very real. But they didn't do that. They chose to scoff at the source in order to avoid having to deal with the facts. That is indeed a fallacy.
    No, it is not.

    A person doesn't have to chase down every worthless assertion of fact just because it is asserted by a fly by night site. If people want to be taken seriously, use serious sources. Occasionally, yes, crappy sources will be right, but it isn't a fault in those who question those sources that they happen to be wrong on such occasions. It is up to the person asserting facts to chase down credible sources. That is precisely what I do when I see a point of fact from a crappy source that I want to use in an argument: I do the work. You are saying the recipient of turds is supposed to turn them into gold on behalf of the giver. That is just ridiculous.

    You do understand that lawyers validly attack the credibility of witnesses on the witness stand because witnesses don't make arguments, they assert facts, right? And that such attacks are logically valid, right? But that they are an attack on a source (ad hominem), right, but that ad hominem isn't a fallacy here?

    A person who attacks a news source on points of fact is simply saying to the giver of the turd, "Go find a credible witness, and then we'll talk". It is up to the giver to "check the facts in this case" not the recipient. You are confused about what this fallacy is.

    To illustrate.

    If A then B.
    A
    Therefore B.

    If you attack the above argument, and say "Dezaad is an idiot, so we don't have to listen to his argument", then you commit the fallacy of Ad Hominem. The argument above is unassailably valid, and its validity has nothing whatsoever to do with my potential idiocy. However, if you say "Dezaad is sloppy about establishing the truth of facts, so we should doubt his assertion 'A'". Then (if it is true that Dezaad is in fact sloppy) you have certainly not committed a fallacy at all. You have shown wisdom. If it turns out that 'A' is true despite the sloppy source from whom you first heard it, you can hardly be faulted for rejecting the assertion upon that first hearing, despite learning its eventual truth. In fact, you would be right to be a little nettled at the person who first quoted Dezaad to you, because that person should have made the effort to establish the credibility of their assertions and done the footwork to find a more credible source to begin with. The person first quoting Dezaad would be at fault, even in this case, on account of laziness.

    And that concludes today's critical thinking lesson. Something to be thankful for on this fine Thanksgiving holiday.
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  3. #143
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    Re: Iran: White House Lying About Details of Nuke Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    You were pretty implicitly suggesting it was true of the OP.
    Well that was not my full intent, but I can see why that would be your conclusion. Mea culpa.

    Feel free to demonstrate it, or accept that you used an ad sourcinem in place of an actual argument.
    Again, ad sourcinem is not a real fallacy. We've established this before, and has Dezaad in post #142.

    And even so, Cardinal pointed this out before in post 19.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    Conservatives may be celebrating a wee bit on the early side. I clicked the link to the original story, and that News site, "Fars News" (never heard of 'em) had Iran's version of the deal, which you can see here.

    The meat of the deal as seen in the White House's release still appears to be there. However, the article says that the Iranians were particular sticklers for details, and the informality of the White House's agreement is what's irking them.



    So based on this story, at least, everyone seems to have lost their **** prematurely. Neither the White House nor Iran can be said to be dirty rotten liars quite yet (at least, not because of this story).
    "Human kindness has never weakened the stamina or softened the fiber of a free people. A nation does not have to be cruel to be tough."
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  4. #144
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    Re: Iran: White House Lying About Details of Nuke Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Jredbaron96 View Post

    And even so, Cardinal pointed this out before in post 19.
    That was earlier in the thread when the difference between the Iranian and White House versions of the deal wasn't clear. Now it is: the White House's release states that all 20% enriched uranium is to be taken down to 5%, the Iranian version says it's keeping half its 20% stock, and then to really confuse matters Kerry is on record saying that enrichment isn't even on the table. So the only thing that is clear at this point is that the deal hasn't been fully worked out, let alone signed.

    Not that I'm defending the conservatives in this thread for using crap sources, because citing crap sources is bad, mkay?

  5. #145
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    Re: Iran: White House Lying About Details of Nuke Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain America View Post
    I find it amazing that the hatred some people have for Obama exceeds their disdain for Iran. They would side with Iran over Obama.

    They seem to have forgotten. It seems just like yesterday that these folks were saying we can't trust a lying Iran. (Which, I do believe is true.) No wait. That WAS yesterday!

    That speaks volumes in and of itself.

    Not exactly the real point.


    The real point is, if this deal will really end the threat of a nuke-armed Iran, why is Iran saying the deal means one thing and the Prez says another?


    So either the prez is lying, or Iran is lying, and/or Iran never had any intention of keeping to any deal that prevents them from making nukes.



    IN short, it is evidence that this deal was going down the flush before it was even made.

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  6. #146
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    Re: Iran: White House Lying About Details of Nuke Deal

    Don't let that get in the way of a press release aimed to help a looser from watching his biggest accomplishment become his biggest failure.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    That was earlier in the thread when the difference between the Iranian and White House versions of the deal wasn't clear. Now it is: the White House's release states that all 20% enriched uranium is to be taken down to 5%, the Iranian version says it's keeping half its 20% stock, and then to really confuse matters Kerry is on record saying that enrichment isn't even on the table. So the only thing that is clear at this point is that the deal hasn't been fully worked out, let alone signed.

    Not that I'm defending the conservatives in this thread for using crap sources, because citing crap sources is bad, mkay?

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    Re: Iran: White House Lying About Details of Nuke Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Not exactly the real point.


    The real point is, if this deal will really end the threat of a nuke-armed Iran, why is Iran saying the deal means one thing and the Prez says another?


    So either the prez is lying, or Iran is lying, and/or Iran never had any intention of keeping to any deal that prevents them from making nukes.



    IN short, it is evidence that this deal was going down the flush before it was even made.
    Or maybe no one's lying, and this story should never have been released in the first place since negotiations are still clearly ongoing.

  8. #148
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    Re: Iran: White House Lying About Details of Nuke Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    If you live in the United States and try to go to aljazeera.com then you'll be rerouted to america.aljazeera.com, the edition of the newspaper without that article.
    Oh. Okay. That is not the government but the company. I get rerouted or blocked for regulatory reasons a lot because I live in Germany, when I want to get music or books. Also there are problems getting Google information out of the US, because they have different search profiles or something. It is a drag, but with a small effort....

    PS: I watch the international Al Jazeera program relatively regularly and find them complementary to other international views. Each country has its own slant and it is interesting to compare differences.

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    Re: Iran: White House Lying About Details of Nuke Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    Oh. Okay. That is not the government but the company. I get rerouted or blocked for regulatory reasons a lot because I live in Germany, when I want to get music or books. Also there are problems getting Google information out of the US, because they have different search profiles or something. It is a drag, but with a small effort....

    PS: I watch the international Al Jazeera program relatively regularly and find them complementary to other international views. Each country has its own slant and it is interesting to compare differences.
    Get a VPN. You can visit just about any website you want if you have one of those. One of the more common uses for a vpn is Americans traveling abroad who want to watch Netflix or Hulu.

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    Re: Iran: White House Lying About Details of Nuke Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    That was earlier in the thread when the difference between the Iranian and White House versions of the deal wasn't clear. Now it is: the White House's release states that all 20% enriched uranium is to be taken down to 5%, the Iranian version says it's keeping half its 20% stock, and then to really confuse matters Kerry is on record saying that enrichment isn't even on the table. So the only thing that is clear at this point is that the deal hasn't been fully worked out, let alone signed.

    Not that I'm defending the conservatives in this thread for using crap sources, because citing crap sources is bad, mkay?
    Ah, thank you for the clarification.
    "Human kindness has never weakened the stamina or softened the fiber of a free people. A nation does not have to be cruel to be tough."
    -FDR

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