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Thread: Dad calls cops on son...cops shoot son

  1. #171
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    Re: Dad calls cops on son...cops shoot son

    Quote Originally Posted by Capster78 View Post
    Gun owners have everything to do with this situation. Due to the easy access of firearms, the prevailence of them is high. Which means, as an officer, you have to presume that everyone you encounter is armed. To do otherwise, is simply ignorant.
    That should be the default assumption in every free and civilized society.

    Quote Originally Posted by CRUE CAB View Post
    And cops should just let out of control scumbags drive around with a 4500lb weapon at their disposal.
    Scumbag, seriously? This was an idiot with self-control problems. Nothing in any of the articles published contains anything to suggest that he was more than a troubled youth.

  2. #172
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    Re: Dad calls cops on son...cops shoot son

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    When he blew through that light they should have backed off and re-acquired. But they didn't and that is fine too... the officers "safety" is not the reason to produce deadly force. The officer's life being in jeopardy is. Their lives were NOT in jeopardy. Cops jump into fights to break them up line up in front of rioters throwing things at them and don't just start blasting away. False argument.
    Your talking about making a judgement call. For everyone, that is going to be different. There is no way to place a clear line in the sand as to when a person should feel their life is in danger or not. If you want to give rights to individuals to protect themselves you have to give them the leway to determine themselves when they feel their lives are in danger. Cops are people as well, and as people, they have families that rely on them. They have every right to determine, just as individual citizens do, when to act in defense of their life.

    Of course people are getting shot. No knock warrants are one example. Read up on them if you are not knowledgeable.
    People are being shot by.... arrows... slingshots....ummmm... lasers... no GUNS!!! And officers are going to be more edgy when they are dealing with people who may or may not be more heavily armed then they are.

    Most people do not own guns. Most gun owners own multiple guns. To assume that everybody is armed is ridiculous. To go in thinking that a gun encounter might occur is retarded beyond comprehension.
    You have never seen the officer training videos where officers became complacent, and as a result, got themselves killed because they were not on guard. This also proves the point that even if you have a firearm, it does not guaruntee your safety or that you will even survive a conflict with someone else who owns a weapon. In a lot of cases these officers were armed, and still were killed. One could make an argument that the fact the officers were armed in the first place elevated the situation which was the reason the criminal felt the only way out was to kill the officer or be killed themselves. This same comparrison can be made when dealing with armed robbers. Many of whom shoot their victims out of fear that their victims may pull a gun on them.
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  3. #173
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    Re: Dad calls cops on son...cops shoot son

    Quote Originally Posted by Capster78 View Post
    Your talking about making a judgement call. For everyone, that is going to be different. There is no way to place a clear line in the sand as to when a person should feel their life is in danger or not. If you want to give rights to individuals to protect themselves you have to give them the leway to determine themselves when they feel their lives are in danger. Cops are people as well, and as people, they have families that rely on them. They have every right to determine, just as individual citizens do, when to act in defense of their life.
    Dude, get serious. We are talking a out trained professionals... not some untrained guy or mom worried about their kid standing behind them...

    People are being shot by.... arrows... slingshots....ummmm... lasers... no GUNS!!! And officers are going to be more edgy when they are dealing with people who may or may not be more heavily armed then they are.
    What in the **** are you talking about? Educate yourself.

    According to Balko, there's been a huge increase in the use of SWAT teams from 3,000 a year in 1981 to 40,000 a year by 2000. That means on average more than 100 times a day in the U.S., a SWAT team is breaking into a home or business. It's difficult to say how many of these raids go wrong, but there are some prominent cases.

    In 2003, based on a tip from an informant, police broke down the door to Alberta Sproul's(ph) apartment in Harlem. The 57-year-old woman had a heart attack and died after the SWAT team entered using flash grenades.

    In 1999 in Denver, police entered the home of Ismael Mena using a no-knock warrant. They were looking for drugs. They shot and killed Mena, but found no drugs.


    Police Re-Examining Policy of 'No-Knock' Searches : NPR

    The rush to clear police in shootings - chicagotribune.com

    There is tons of evidence... look it up yourself.

    You have never seen the officer training videos where officers became complacent, and as a result, got themselves killed because they were not on guard. This also proves the point that even if you have a firearm, it does not guaruntee your safety or that you will even survive a conflict with someone else who owns a weapon. In a lot of cases these officers were armed, and still were killed. One could make an argument that the fact the officers were armed in the first place elevated the situation which was the reason the criminal felt the only way out was to kill the officer or be killed themselves. This same comparrison can be made when dealing with armed robbers. Many of whom shoot their victims out of fear that their victims may pull a gun on them.
    Watch the video. The cop was never in life ending danger. He jumped out of his car and instantly opened fire. Cases like this happen ALL THE TIME. Ignore it if you like but you are making one piss poor argument.
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  4. #174
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    Re: Dad calls cops on son...cops shoot son

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    Dude, get serious. We are talking a out trained professionals... not some untrained guy or mom worried about their kid standing behind them...
    Anyone who is anyone will tell you that training does not accurately portray a real life scenario. All training will do is provide you with the skills to operate a gun in the most efficient manner. Training will not trump human instinct. Everyone has a different threshold of tollerance when it comes to when that instinct kicks in. We are not robots programmed with precise emotion / training reflexes. How one person assesses a situation may differ a great deal from another person. So it is virtually impossible to predict when someone is to feel or not feel that their life is in danger. Saying that, and in the face of the vast proliferation of firearms out there, the unpredictibility alone is a precursor to a potential violent confrontation. One that officers MUST be ready to deal with. Other than just an outright shooting of someone dead, which this was not, I think officers deserve a large area of leway when determining what constitutes a threat. And what people need to get thru their heads is that when confronted by an ARMED officer, you should comply with all instructions and take your fight to the courthouse where it belongs and not on the street with the officer.

    What in the **** are you talking about? Educate yourself.

    According to Balko, there's been a huge increase in the use of SWAT teams from 3,000 a year in 1981 to 40,000 a year by 2000. That means on average more than 100 times a day in the U.S., a SWAT team is breaking into a home or business. It's difficult to say how many of these raids go wrong, but there are some prominent cases.

    In 2003, based on a tip from an informant, police broke down the door to Alberta Sproul's(ph) apartment in Harlem. The 57-year-old woman had a heart attack and died after the SWAT team entered using flash grenades.

    In 1999 in Denver, police entered the home of Ismael Mena using a no-knock warrant. They were looking for drugs. They shot and killed Mena, but found no drugs.


    Police Re-Examining Policy of 'No-Knock' Searches : NPR

    The rush to clear police in shootings - chicagotribune.com

    There is tons of evidence... look it up yourself.



    Watch the video. The cop was never in life ending danger. He jumped out of his car and instantly opened fire. Cases like this happen ALL THE TIME. Ignore it if you like but you are making one piss poor argument.
    Of course swat teams have been utilized more now than ever, because there are more armed people than ever. I'm not talking about legal owners, I am talking about the combined number of legal and illegal gun owners. That, and the increase in the number of people who feel they need to confront authority with non-compliance or even force. So of course there will be an increase in force by police when there is an increase in force by civilians.
    - There was never a good war, or a bad peace.
    - Idealistically, everything should work as you planed it to. Realistically, it depends on how idealistic you are as to the measure of success.
    - Better to be a pessimist before, and an optimist afterwords.

  5. #175
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    Re: Dad calls cops on son...cops shoot son

    Quote Originally Posted by Capster78 View Post
    Anyone who is anyone will tell you that training does not accurately portray a real life scenario.
    As a trained fire fighter I bet I know far more about training and real life scenarios than you ever will. Anyone who is anyone...

    All training will do is provide you with the skills to operate a gun in the most efficient manner. Training will not trump human instinct. Everyone has a different threshold of tollerance when it comes to when that instinct kicks in. We are not robots programmed with precise emotion / training reflexes. How one person assesses a situation may differ a great deal from another person. So it is virtually impossible to predict when someone is to feel or not feel that their life is in danger. Saying that, and in the face of the vast proliferation of firearms out there, the unpredictibility alone is a precursor to a potential violent confrontation. One that officers MUST be ready to deal with.
    Training provides a base. Those that train stretch their tolerance and learn to expect, anticipate and deal with the unpredictable. Training takes individuals that assess a situation differently and helps/makes them asses situations in a more similar manner so as to provide stability and uniformity.

    Other than just an outright shooting of someone dead, which this was not, I think officers deserve a large area of leway when determining what constitutes a threat. And what people need to get thru their heads is that when confronted by an ARMED officer, you should comply with all instructions and take your fight to the courthouse where it belongs and not on the street with the officer.
    Cops are not always right. Taking a fight to the courthouse is a better thing to do than to fight but cops win that almost every time. If you are charged you are rarely going to get that over turned, if not ever.

    Of course swat teams have been utilized more now than ever, because there are more armed people than ever. I'm not talking about legal owners, I am talking about the combined number of legal and illegal gun owners. That, and the increase in the number of people who feel they need to confront authority with non-compliance or even force. So of course there will be an increase in force by police when there is an increase in force by civilians.
    You have not educated yourself and you apparently have no idea what a no knock warrant is or how and why that has led to the deaths of innocent children, elderly in addition to people thinking that they are facing a home invasion robbery... and all innocent people where the police went to the wrong house as well.
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    Re: Dad calls cops on son...cops shoot son

    Quote Originally Posted by Korimyr the Rat View Post
    That should be the default assumption in every free and civilized society.



    Scumbag, seriously? This was an idiot with self-control problems. Nothing in any of the articles published contains anything to suggest that he was more than a troubled youth.
    Idiot with self control problems = scumbag.

  7. #177
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    Re: Dad calls cops on son...cops shoot son

    Quote Originally Posted by Capster78 View Post
    Gun owners have everything to do with this situation. Due to the easy access of firearms, the prevailence of them is high. Which means, as an officer, you have to presume that everyone you encounter is armed. To do otherwise, is simply ignorant.
    The same would be true w/o guns. The perp might have a butcher knife, or sewing scissors.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Dad calls cops on son...cops shoot son

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    The same would be true w/o guns. The perp might have a butcher knife, or sewing scissors.
    And 4 sets of box cutters caused 911... I say the TSA should be authorized to open fire in airports (wait, didn't a guy already?) because " you can never be too careful"
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have pooped in public, even in public neighborhoods.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
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  9. #179
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    Re: Dad calls cops on son...cops shoot son

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    No, they should have arrested him and taken him to jail. That's how it works.
    What if it was your kid?
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  10. #180
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    Re: Dad calls cops on son...cops shoot son

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    As a trained fire fighter I bet I know far more about training and real life scenarios than you ever will. Anyone who is anyone...
    Yep, I would know nothing about training, especially since I am in the military and have been stationed at forward operating locations before. But go ahead and tell me about how much I do not understand about training.



    Training provides a base. Those that train stretch their tolerance and learn to expect, anticipate and deal with the unpredictable. Training takes individuals that assess a situation differently and helps/makes them asses situations in a more similar manner so as to provide stability and uniformity.
    Training does provide a base knowledge, but it is impossible and probably deadly to train everyone to react the same way to any particular instance. Training should be disigned to educate someone on the basic theory of how to react to a situation. But since all situations are not cookie cutter situations you can draw up in a training environment, all training should ever consist of is basics with an emphasis on using you brain to think thru the scenario.

    Cops are not always right. Taking a fight to the courthouse is a better thing to do than to fight but cops win that almost every time. If you are charged you are rarely going to get that over turned, if not ever.
    If you feel this way, I would not have any pitty on you if an officer shoots you dead. Right or wrong, who cares! The officer's only concern in a situation where a citizen starts a confrontation with them is public safety and their own life. If you put them in a situation where they feel thretened by creating a hostile environment, I would not fault them for taking it upon themselves to protect themselves. Right or wrong, I don't care. If you want a confrontation on the street with an officer, just remember that officer has the right to defend themselves from you and that not everyone has the same threshold of what they will put up with until they feel they are in danger.

    You have not educated yourself and you apparently have no idea what a no knock warrant is or how and why that has led to the deaths of innocent children, elderly in addition to people thinking that they are facing a home invasion robbery... and all innocent people where the police went to the wrong house as well.
    No education needed.
    - There was never a good war, or a bad peace.
    - Idealistically, everything should work as you planed it to. Realistically, it depends on how idealistic you are as to the measure of success.
    - Better to be a pessimist before, and an optimist afterwords.

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