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Thread: ENDA Now Has The Support Of Every Single Senate Democrat

  1. #31
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    Re: ENDA Now Has The Support Of Every Single Senate Democrat

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    So you can force people to employ you without forcing them to associate with you?
    So you can force people to employ you without making them a servant?
    So you can force people to provide you serve without forcing them to associate with you?
    So you can force people to provide you serve without making them a servant?

    What do you think happens when they are unwilling? Could that be perhaps a problem?
    Wait.. I must have missed something. This is a bill to force people to employ other people? Really? Won't that lead to 0% unemployment?

    But, how are employers to afford all those extra employees?

    I thought it was a bill to further outlaw discrimination, you know, an extension of the Civil Rights Act passed back in '65. Go figure.
    "Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud... [he's] playing the American public for suckers." Mitt Romney

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    Re: ENDA Now Has The Support Of Every Single Senate Democrat

    Quote Originally Posted by WorldWatcher View Post
    #1 - Public Accommodation laws have been upheld, see Heart of Atlanta Motel v. United States and individual religious exemptions (as opposed to exemption specifically granted to houses of worship) have also not had much success. So such classes of laws have already "gotten past" a constitutional review.

    #2 - Relating Public Accommodation laws to "slavery" is kind of silly since slavery includes one person owning another as chattel, not the regulation of business a person voluntarily participates in.
    Chattel slavery is not the only form of slavery which makes the case in question and your comment wrong. Forcing someone into service for another is slavery. Also, my first amendment argument is not about religion, but of association.

    A business is property and people have the right to control access and use of their property. Just like they have the right to their labor. It really doesn't matter if they started their business voluntarily since that has nothing to do with my case.

    #3 - I'm for the repeal of Public Accommodation laws, however even though I don't support them I can still discuss them in a rational manner.

    >>>>
    That is what I'm doing.

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    Re: ENDA Now Has The Support Of Every Single Senate Democrat

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Wait.. I must have missed something. This is a bill to force people to employ other people? Really? Won't that lead to 0% unemployment?

    But, how are employers to afford all those extra employees?

    I thought it was a bill to further outlaw discrimination, you know, an extension of the Civil Rights Act passed back in '65. Go figure.
    It's was '64. What happens to a business that discriminates against a member of a protected group? What is the reason for that?

  4. #34
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    Re: ENDA Now Has The Support Of Every Single Senate Democrat

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Chattel slavery is not the only form of slavery which makes the case in question and your comment wrong. Forcing someone into service for another is slavery. Also, my first amendment argument is not about religion, but of association.

    A business is property and people have the right to control access and use of their property. Just like they have the right to their labor. It really doesn't matter if they started their business voluntarily since that has nothing to do with my case.
    I'm just pointing out that First Amendment claims have already been dealt with see Employment Division v. Smith, Roberts v. United States Jaycees, Board of Directors of Rotary Int'l v. Rotary Club of Duarte, and New York State Club Ass'n v. New York City.

    If the claim is that the law will be stricken based either on 1st Amendment religious grounds or association grounds, don't hold your breath. Both avenues have already been tried and shot down.


    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    That is what I'm doing.

    No, what you are trying to do is make a silly connection between owning people and Public Accommodation laws. Slaves were property, the were owned by another human being and they had no option to end that association. Under Public Accommodation laws the when the business chooses to voluntarily offer goods and services to the public they are limited on not discriminating for the delivery of those goods and services. If the business doesn't want to offer those goods and services, they are free to choose to not do so.



    >>>>

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    Re: ENDA Now Has The Support Of Every Single Senate Democrat

    Quote Originally Posted by WorldWatcher View Post
    I'm just pointing out that First Amendment claims have already been dealt with see Employment Division v. Smith, Roberts v. United States Jaycees, Board of Directors of Rotary Int'l v. Rotary Club of Duarte, and New York State Club Ass'n v. New York City.

    If the claim is that the law will be stricken based either on 1st Amendment religious grounds or association grounds, don't hold your breath. Both avenues have already been tried and shot down.
    Doesn't make my argument any less correct. Forcing people to associate with others is a clear violation of the right to association. It wouldn't keep coming up if they were actually right. The entire country besides nine men and women are not retarded, and we can all clearly read the amendment in question.

    No, what you are trying to do is make a silly connection between owning people and Public Accommodation laws. Slaves were property, the were owned by another human being and they had no option to end that association. Under Public Accommodation laws the when the business chooses to voluntarily offer goods and services to the public they are limited on not discriminating for the delivery of those goods and services. If the business doesn't want to offer those goods and services, they are free to choose to not do so.
    Again, forcing people to serve others is involuntary servitude and thus slavery. The thirteenth amendment clearly bars such a condition in the United States.

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    Re: ENDA Now Has The Support Of Every Single Senate Democrat

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Again, forcing people to serve others is involuntary servitude and thus slavery.
    They aren't forced to serve ANYONE, they can CHOOSE to not be in business. To equate it to slavery is just plain idiotic.

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    Re: ENDA Now Has The Support Of Every Single Senate Democrat

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    They aren't forced to serve ANYONE, they can CHOOSE to not be in business.
    Is a contract valid that violates my rights? No.

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    Re: ENDA Now Has The Support Of Every Single Senate Democrat

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Doesn't make my argument any less correct. Forcing people to associate with others is a clear violation of the right to association. It wouldn't keep coming up if they were actually right.
    They aren't forced to associate with anyone, businesses are free not to offer services in business areas they don't want to offer.

    If a person is against interracial marriage and runs a florist shop, they are free to not offer wedding arrangements.


    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Again, forcing people to serve others is involuntary servitude and thus slavery. The thirteenth amendment clearly bars such a condition in the United States.
    I don't necessarily disagree with the concept, but trying to shroud it in the mantel of "unconstitutionally" just makes our position sound silly. A child recognizes the difference between slavery where one person own the other as property and a business who voluntarily offers services to the public being limited on the ability to discriminate.

    We agree on the fundamental concept, Pubic Accommodation laws are wrong - that doesnt' mean that they are illegal. Just because the government has the power to do something (and yes State level Public Accommodation laws are a power held by the States under the 10th Amendment), doesn't mean that we can support the exercising of such power.



    >>>>

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    Re: ENDA Now Has The Support Of Every Single Senate Democrat

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Is a contract valid that violates my rights? No.
    You are not forced to be in business. There is no violation.

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    Re: ENDA Now Has The Support Of Every Single Senate Democrat

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Is a contract valid that violates my rights? No.
    Sure they are in some cases.

    We have a right to Free Speech, yet companies have and enforce non-disclosure agreements.

    Depends on the circumstances.


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