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"American Blackout" thread

TacticalEvilDan said:
What I am telling you is that if you're in the minority, your attitude will last about as long as it takes the majority find and ****ing eat you. So maybe you want to take a more engaging approach and try to educate as many people as possible instead of coming off like a dick.
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I promise I've tried only to come across many nay-sayers like yourself. :)

PS: save your comments fro someone who doesn't care.
 
WCH said:
I promise I've tried only to come across many nay-sayers like yourself. :)

PS: save your comments fro someone who doesn't care.
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I haven't actually said any nays. I objected to your attitude. If you can't see how silly it will be to hold onto it when the **** hits the fan then it's your ass that'll be on the grill, not mine.
 
TacticalEvilDan said:
I haven't actually said any nays. I objected to your attitude. If you can't see how silly it will be to hold onto it when the **** hits the fan then it's your ass that'll be on the grill, not mine.
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You made your point now please add some substance to this thread or move along.
 
Harshaw said:
The only people who are going to survive are those who have built up social networks and trust each other enough to share with and watch out for each other, and are able to protect each other and shared resources. This isn't going to happen in numbers fewer than a couple hundred. The romantic idea of a lone survivor who's prepped, or the single family, is pretty much poppycock. When a hundred of your hungry neighbors want your stuff, they're going to get it one way or the other.

Real, effective prepping involves building that kind of community and social cohesion, and then you all store resources together, somewhere that you can stay and defend. (This actually used to be called "life.")
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That was my first thought as well.

The "I'm a ****ing bad ass" attitude reminds me of the old saying "Twice the pride, double the fall".
 
Jetboogieman said:
That was my first thought as well.

The "I'm a ****ing bad ass" attitude reminds me of the old saying "Twice the pride, double the fall".
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Yeah, it reminds me of the guy in Highlander who was driving around with his Trans Am trunk full of SMGs. An alienating attitude is just about the worst thing you can have in a survival situation, and that starts way before the survival situation actually comes along. If everyone thinks you're a douche, you've got no chance.
 
TacticalEvilDan said:
I've added exactly as much as substance as you, which is kind of funny seeing as how it's your thread. :lol:
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I started this thread to notify people of this show and have them comment. What I added was simply fact.
 
I feel obligated to stick my two bits in here.


Is it better to prep than not? Sure. You never know. Aside from major disasters like EMP, asteroids, plagues and what have you, it comes in handy after hurricanes, ice storms, tornadoes and so on. Not to mention accumulating the necessary skill sets is useful and fun, and you can meet some very interesting people in the process.

There's a popular saying that if you're prepped for the Zombie Apocalypse, you're prepped for anything. Well... it isn't the worst analogy ever but it isn't quite true. The effects of an EMP are one thing; the scenario of a mass pandemic killing off the bulk of the population is another. Some version of Fimbulwinter (supervolcano, nuclear winter, climate collapse, etc) is a different thing. Economic collapse is still another and in some ways one of the toughest.

One of the things you quickly find out when you get serious about self-sufficiency is how much manpower it takes to really cover all bases... I mean, just having enough manpower to post adequate guards around your site 24/7 is staggering, if you don't want everyone falling out from lack of sleep.

One family alone is skating on very thin ice in any survival situation. Especially if that family has one person who is the main driving force behind their survival plans... what happens if that person is killed or gets sick? There's also the truth that no one person can know it all... be his own dentist, doctor, veterinarian, agriculturist, tactician, security expert, rifleman, medic, communications expert, engineering guru, grease-monkey mechanic, electrician, welder, plumber... you get the picture.

Humans have always survived in groups. Bands of 30 to 200 in primitive life, typically. There are reasons for that.

In many scenarios people will come streaming out of the cities, millions of them, looking for food and water. Millions.


You're have to be VERY isolated and VERY well hidden to not be in great danger in such a circumstance. Unless your house can only be reached by mountain-bred pack-mules, you're probably not isolated enough to survive as a single family alone, in such circumstances.

If there is a total collapse of civil order and distribution of vital goods, it is highly probable that one day somewhere between several dozen and several HUNDRED hungry refugees will show up in your driveway... some of them armed... and that is a mighty ugly scenario for a single family alone, even if their home is an armored bunker and they have more guns than the A-Team.


Here's what is going to happen, in a major disaster, in your neighborhood:

When things get hungry, or maybe before, either a mob is going to form or someone is going to take charge and organize the neighborhood and try to get some kind of order and obtain vital supplies somehow.

WHEN that happens, who do you want to be:

1. That slightly creepy, close-mouthed guy who isn't very friendly, who some of the neighbors suspect of being one of those kooky Survivalists, or a HOARDER... and who is suspiciously absent when the community meeting is held...

or...

2. The guy, or one of the guys, who IS organizing the community and trying to lead the people and get something squared away?


In case #1, you're a target of the mob. In Case #2, you're leading the mob.


Okay to be honest neither is exactly optimal... if you're the leader, you've got to produce some results (ie FOOD). Otherwise, you're the food source who's going to find a hundred pissed off armed neighbors demanding to know why you're HOARDING more than you need when everyone's kids are hungry...


See where I'm going with this?


You either need to be VERY isolated and VERY hard to find and ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE to get at... or you need to be part of a group, team, or community, preferably one of the leaders... and the best time to start that is BEFORE anything happens. The community will be more likely to accept a leader who is already known as "that nice guy who's been trying to get everyone to prepare for disasters and who probably knows lots of stuff", vs "that weird kook who keeps to himself and doesn't talk to anyone much."


One family alone might survive a hurricane or an ice storm... but not TEOTWAWKI.
 
Harshaw said:
Yeah, it reminds me of the guy in Highlander who was driving around with his Trans Am trunk full of SMGs. An alienating attitude is just about the worst thing you can have in a survival situation, and that starts way before the survival situation actually comes along. If everyone thinks you're a douche, you've got no chance.
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Thing is.

Humans crave order.

And while the idea of a lawless wasteland (such as Fallout) or something to that effect makes for a fun gaming and movie experience... people have a way of re-organizing themselves into order following a traumatic event.

There's proof of this following the Tsunami in Japan, communication networks were set up by volunteer runners, people pulled together.

In Alberta during the flooding, at different points we lost power, lost all phone and internet, but life went on.

Now if it had lasted for a pro-longed period, I'm sure there would have been difficulties, but things like this ignore a startling reality.

That there are still many places in the world that exist in relative order without all the creature comforts we enjoy in the 1st world today... and while the immediate effects of a pro-longed power outage might even be devastating (and my immediate concern is prisons), society has a way of adapting, overcoming ultimately let's say the documentary is right, it's virtually impossible to suggest that a cyber attack could permanently destroy the power grid when the power stations themselves have not been inflicted with any physical damage and still have the ability to churn out electricity.

Things would have to be re-networked... but it reminds me a bit of the remake of Battlestar Galactica, maybe we'd have to go back to a simpler power grid.
 
Jetboogieman said:
Thing is.

Humans crave order.

And while the idea of a lawless wasteland (such as Fallout) or something to that effect makes for a fun gaming and movie experience... people have a way of re-organizing themselves into order following a traumatic event.

There's proof of this following the Tsunami in Japan, communication networks were set up by volunteer runners, people pulled together.

In Alberta during the flooding, at different points we lost power, lost all phone and internet, but life went on.

Now if it had lasted for a pro-longed period, I'm sure there would have been difficulties, but things like this ignore a startling reality.

That there are still many places in the world that exist in relative order without all the creature comforts we enjoy in the 1st world today... and while the immediate effects of a pro-longed power outage might even be devastating (and my immediate concern is prisons), society has a way of adapting, overcoming ultimately let's say the documentary is right, it's virtually impossible to suggest that a cyber attack could permanently destroy the power grid when the power stations themselves have not been inflicted with any physical damage and still have the ability to churn out electricity.

Things would have to be re-networked... but it reminds me a bit of the remake of Battlestar Galactica, maybe we'd have to go back to a simpler power grid.
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Yeah, things will settle down, because no one wants to live in a perpetual state of kill or be killed, and truthfully, people are generally good. But there's a lot of **** to get through before that happens, especially if there is no outside world to reconnect with. It's a lot easier to keep your cool when the problem is localized and obviously temporary, with survival not really in question. But a cataclysm on a national or global scale . . . there's no precedent for that.
 
Harshaw said:
Yeah, things will settle down, because no one wants to live in a perpetual state of kill or be killed, and truthfully, people are generally good. But there's a lot of **** to get through before that happens, especially if there is no outside world to reconnect with. It's a lot easier to keep your cool when the problem is localized and obviously temporary, with survival not really in question. But a cataclysm on a national or global scale . . . there's no precedent for that.
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Hopefully most of the people who aren't 'good' will be dealt with promptly so the rest of us can restore order.

You're right about that last part...
 
Jetboogieman said:
Thing is.

Humans crave order.

And while the idea of a lawless wasteland (such as Fallout) or something to that effect makes for a fun gaming and movie experience... people have a way of re-organizing themselves into order following a traumatic event.

There's proof of this following the Tsunami in Japan, communication networks were set up by volunteer runners, people pulled together.

In Alberta during the flooding, at different points we lost power, lost all phone and internet, but life went on.

Now if it had lasted for a pro-longed period, I'm sure there would have been difficulties, but things like this ignore a startling reality.

That there are still many places in the world that exist in relative order without all the creature comforts we enjoy in the 1st world today... and while the immediate effects of a pro-longed power outage might even be devastating (and my immediate concern is prisons), society has a way of adapting, overcoming ultimately let's say the documentary is right, it's virtually impossible to suggest that a cyber attack could permanently destroy the power grid when the power stations themselves have not been inflicted with any physical damage and still have the ability to churn out electricity.

Things would have to be re-networked... but it reminds me a bit of the remake of Battlestar Galactica, maybe we'd have to go back to a simpler power grid.
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Probably no shock that I've studied the EMP phenomenon... and I work for the power company, and I've discussed this stuff with the engineers.

The effects of a major EMP on modern society have never been well analyzed. Obviously, the only way to really test it would be to DO it... and there's obvious reasons why that isn't going to happen willingly.

But there have been some incidents involving nuke tests, and some simulations involving lower-scale generated EMP.


The power grid would almost certainly go down hard and things like substations and transformers would take physical damage. According to engineers I've consulted with, rebuilding the grid after such a disaster would take years and the cost is incalculable.

Communications would be largely toast. Any electronics connected to a long wire would be fried. Internet gone, cellphones gone, landlines mostly gone... and almost certainly police radio and 911 too.

Given that our distribution system is totally computerized and dependent on electronic commo that would be a major problem all by itself.

Then there's transportation. No good studies have been done about EMP and automobiles. The studies that have been done were typically half-assed due to budget constraints. We DO know that if you suffer a decent power surge in your electrical system it can easily fry the onboard electronics, and many or most vehicles made in the past 20 years won't run well, if at all, without them.

If transportation is fracked, we're in REALLY big trouble.


At one time, the government and military were very interested in EMP hardening their electronics and commo... but a recent study done by a congressional committee said that EMP preparedness among the government and military was probably very woefully inadequate.


So long version shortened: nobody can really say with certainty, but an EMP type attack could be truly devastating... in some ways WORSE than merely having mushroom clouds blossom over the major cities... and it could take years for life to go back to something anywhere near "normal".
 
WCH said:
Hopefully most of the people who aren't 'good' will be dealt with promptly so the rest of us can restore order.
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And how do you picture that going down?
 
Goshin said:
You either need to be VERY isolated and VERY hard to find and ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE to get at... or you need to be part of a group, team, or community, preferably one of the leaders... and the best time to start that is BEFORE anything happens. The community will be more likely to accept a leader who is already known as "that nice guy who's been trying to get everyone to prepare for disasters and who probably knows lots of stuff", vs "that weird kook who keeps to himself and doesn't talk to anyone much."
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Natural disasters are not as big of a deal as the government taking a bad turn.

It's much more practical to move to communities that are based on sharing and common benefit. But that's going to be hard to do with the anti-socialist agenda happening in the United States. Also, the government is well aware of which pockets of communities are the most likely to assert self-sufficiency plans, and they will be the most targeted.

People are really naive about the top level surveillance that's happening right now. I've done aid work in countries where the rise of fascism is recent, and it gets really ugly, really fast. History shows us that by the time that the mainstream realizes what's going on, it's already too late. The reason I left the U.S. was because the same early warning signs I saw in those other countries were present in my own country at the time.

When the **** hits the fan, all the lemmings will flee to the borders which means the roads will be impossible to traverse. The best initial strategy, no matter where you are, will be to hold your position and conserve. Once the initial chaos is over, you can try to leave if you're not already in a secure location. Even then, be prepared for roadblocks of various kinds, including government ones.

Any long term survival strategy must combine the efforts of some kind of collective with remoteness. Initially the government would be too busy dealing with the major cities to focus much effort on smaller communities. The problem is that the U.S. government is so paranoid at this point that self-sufficient communities would be viewed as dissidents. In most online prepper networks it is common knowledge that government lists are being made. Self-identified prepper vendors who offer literature and equipment for self-sufficiency have suffered raids by the FBI in recent years.

So the last piece of advice I can give is that if you want to organize your family with other families so that you have a survival strategy, is that you keep your plans to yourselves and only invite in the most trustworthy people.

I wish I had better advice but my strategy was just to get out. The U.S. government has become corporate administration at this point so we can't rely on any of our systems to be there for us if things become extremely corrupt.
 
Northern Light said:
Natural disasters are not as big of a deal as the government taking a bad turn.

It's much more practical to move to communities that are based on sharing and common benefit. But that's going to be hard to do with the anti-socialist agenda happening in the United States. Also, the government is well aware of which pockets of communities are the most likely to assert self-sufficiency plans, and they will be the most targeted.

People are really naive about the top level surveillance that's happening right now. I've done aid work in countries where the rise of fascism is recent, and it gets really ugly, really fast. History shows us that by the time that the mainstream realizes what's going on, it's already too late. The reason I left the U.S. was because the same early warning signs I saw in those other countries were present in my own country at the time.

When the **** hits the fan, all the lemmings will flee to the borders which means the roads will be impossible to traverse. The best initial strategy, no matter where you are, will be to hold your position and conserve. Once the initial chaos is over, you can try to leave if you're not already in a secure location. Even then, be prepared for roadblocks of various kinds, including government ones.

Any long term survival strategy must combine the efforts of some kind of collective with remoteness. Initially the government would be too busy dealing with the major cities to focus much effort on smaller communities. The problem is that the U.S. government is so paranoid at this point that self-sufficient communities would be viewed as dissidents. In most online prepper networks it is common knowledge that government lists are being made. Self-identified prepper vendors who offer literature and equipment for self-sufficiency have suffered raids by the FBI in recent years.

So the last piece of advice I can give is that if you want to organize your family with other families so that you have a survival strategy, is that you keep your plans to yourselves and only invite in the most trustworthy people.

I wish I had better advice but my strategy was just to get out. The U.S. government has become corporate administration at this point so we can't rely on any of our systems to be there for us if things become extremely corrupt.
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I'll grant that you have a point... but do you really think that where you are is that much better, or immune to government corruption, or to disorder in the event of a major catastrophe?
 
Goshin said:
I'll grant that you have a point... but do you really think that where you are is that much better, or immune to government corruption, or to disorder in the event of a major catastrophe?
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Tyranny can happen anywhere, but I'd rather be beside the beast than in its belly.
 
Northern Light said:
lol... if you say so.

And anyway, if I'm wrong I'll eat crow.
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And street rat, and city squirrel, and probably less pleasant things, yes... but I'll probably be altogether too busy for any sort of 'toldja so". If I'm alive.
 
Goshin said:
And street rat, and city squirrel, and probably less pleasant things, yes... but I'll probably be altogether too busy for any sort of 'toldja so". If I'm alive.
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May our corpses lovingly nourish whoever salvages them! :D
 
TacticalEvilDan said:
It won't be me, I'm fine where I am. It'll be several dozen hungry people, because humans are pack animals.
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There are several dozen that will be here, with me. Family and friends that know that when the powers off, come to my house. The last time we had a major ice storm, a bunch of them moved in for a few weeks. They bring their supplies as well, and me just act like it's a camping vacation in the woods, with sleeping bags everywhere. We all share in the cooking, cleaning, etc.

It's pretty fun. Takes your mind off the situation. We make up games and tell stories (some are pretty ingenious at making up stories). We have satellite TV and SatPhones, so that keeps working, and if it didn't we still have ways of getting the news (most are retired military SOF) and we have communications with the government (weather, FEMA, etc.) and others to see where we stand.

Oh, and yes, they come with their weapons as well. Not as much for protection from other people, but because that's just what we do. Like not going anywhere without your wallet.

But, I can see your point. Where I live is not in a metro area. My house is a half mile off the road, and at least 1,000 feet from the closest woods. We can see anyone coming, before they know we see them. My farm is 85 acres and my house is right in the center, on a hill.

The people around here know how it works around here, and we all look after each other, even the ones who under normal circumstances we don't like. We stick together, through the good and the bad. Well, there is one exception, but he knows he's the exception. I'd still let him in if the worst happened. I'd just keep an eye on him.
 
Beaudreaux said:
There are several dozen that will be here, with me. Family and friends that know that when the powers off, come to my house. The last time we had a major ice storm, a bunch of them moved in for a few weeks. They bring their supplies as well, and me just act like it's a camping vacation in the woods, with sleeping bags everywhere. We all share in the cooking, cleaning, etc.

It's pretty fun. Takes your mind off the situation. We make up games and tell stories (some are pretty ingenious at making up stories). We have satellite TV and SatPhones, so that keeps working, and if it didn't we still have ways of getting the news (most are retired military SOF) and we have communications with the government (weather, FEMA, etc.) and others to see where we stand.

Oh, and yes, they come with their weapons as well. Not as much for protection from other people, but because that's just what we do. Like not going anywhere without your wallet.

But, I can see your point. Where I live is not in a metro area. My house is a half mile off the road, and at least 1,000 feet from the closest woods. We can see anyone coming, before they know we see them. My farm is 85 acres and my house is right in the center, on a hill.

The people around here know how it works around here, and we all look after each other, even the ones who under normal circumstances we don't like. We stick together, through the good and the bad. Well, there is one exception, but he knows he's the exception. I'd still let him in if the worst happened. I'd just keep an eye on him.
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Whatever you say. As I've said before to the OP, you'd better hope you're not in the minority, because if you are none of what you just said is going to matter.
 
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