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Thread: Exclusive: Germany, Brazil Turn to U.N. to Restrain American Spies

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    Exclusive: Germany, Brazil Turn to U.N. to Restrain American Spies

    Exclusive: Germany, Brazil Turn to U.N. to Restrain American Spies | The Cable

    Brazil and Germany today joined forces to press for the adoption of a U.N. General Resolution that promotes the right of privacy on the internet, marking the first major international effort to restrain the National Security Agency's intrusions into the online communications of foreigners
    The effort follows a German claim that the American spy agency may have tapped the private telephone of German Chancellor Angela Merkel and dozens of other world leaders.
    Brazilian leader Dilma Rousseff denounced NSA espionage against her country as "a breach of international law"
    Its bad when you spy on your allies and loose even more credibility to the world.

    This administration has done more harm in this world than the Bush Administration ever did...and we have a little over 3 years left of this administrations debacles left to deal with.
    Know the truth and the truth will make you mad, because the truth has no agenda.

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    Re: Exclusive: Germany, Brazil Turn to U.N. to Restrain American Spies

    Quote Originally Posted by Imnukingfutz View Post
    Exclusive: Germany, Brazil Turn to U.N. to Restrain American Spies | The Cable







    Its bad when you spy on your allies and loose even more credibility to the world.

    This administration has done more harm in this world than the Bush Administration ever did...and we have a little over 3 years left of this administrations debacles left to deal with.
    Uh, the main leak that I've recently seen on the topic was of a memo sent during the Bush administration.

    Just saying.
    The truth may be out there, but lies are in your head. ~Terry Pratchett

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    Re: Exclusive: Germany, Brazil Turn to U.N. to Restrain American Spies

    Quote Originally Posted by iangb View Post
    Uh, the main leak that I've recently seen on the topic was of a memo sent during the Bush administration.

    Just saying.
    I don't think we should be saying things like "Look at how bad he is compared to XXXX", we should be making objective statements about how bad he is. Simple fact is, Obama promised to have the most transparent administration in history, to stop the wars, and to rebuild international relations. His actions have been the exact opposite of all 3.

    At some point you have to blame the current administration for the way things are being run, and I think 5 years in is more than enough time.
    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    I've got to say that it is shadenfreudalicious to see the rich and famous fucquewads on the coast suffering from the fires.

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    Re: Exclusive: Germany, Brazil Turn to U.N. to Restrain American Spies

    Quote Originally Posted by Imnukingfutz View Post
    Exclusive: Germany, Brazil Turn to U.N. to Restrain American Spies | The Cable

    Its bad when you spy on your allies and loose even more credibility to the world.

    This administration has done more harm in this world than the Bush Administration ever did...and we have a little over 3 years left of this administrations debacles left to deal with.
    The "spy" thing is quite complex ie has many facets.
    - Neither Brazil nor Germany is a freind. Both have caused enormous harm to the US over the last 20 years.

    - In the case of Germany there are a number of pertinent points to think about.
    - The German government has had early warnings about planed terrorist attacks given it from the NSA operations. It told the public but did not explain the programs, German participation in the programs nor the importance of the programs, leaving the public mistrustful of the US, which is generally disliked.
    - Ms Merkel wants to transfer more sovereignty to Europe, because the Euro is doomed, if the Euroland is not strengthened. As the German and a number of other populations around Europe do not want this Ms Merkel and a number of European Grandees are resorting to the "External Enemy" ploy to firm their backing against anticipated resistance to their deepening of Europe policies.
    - Successive German governments have been breaking German civil and criminal laws (at least as it has been interpreted by the courts) for twenty years in allowing data mining other things being carried out by US security agencies. This means that all major parties were involved. As German courts are in no way free to pick this up, there is no immediate danger to those involved. If the population pick up on the breadth of these activities, however, that could change and certainly the modus operandi of government would change radically to the detriment of the present holders of power. Ms Merkel is under enormous pressure to prevent this happening and it is therefore worth the risk to attack the Americans to deflect attention from the own wrong doing.

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    Re: Exclusive: Germany, Brazil Turn to U.N. to Restrain American Spies

    Quote Originally Posted by Imnukingfutz View Post
    Exclusive: Germany, Brazil Turn to U.N. to Restrain American Spies | The Cable

    Its bad when you spy on your allies and loose even more credibility to the world.

    This administration has done more harm in this world than the Bush Administration ever did...and we have a little over 3 years left of this administrations debacles left to deal with.
    What the Americans were doing is totally understandable and legitimate. If the French, Germans, British or Italians are not listening to what goes on in the UN, EU or embassies and trying to get as close as possible to secret communications by shady heads of state, I would be very surprised. As a citizen of such countries I would be furious that the people I pay to do these things were not doing their jobs.

    What Obama has done poorly is to explain what we do and why it is so very necessary. He has fallen down badly on this front.

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    Re: Exclusive: Germany, Brazil Turn to U.N. to Restrain American Spies

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    The "spy" thing is quite complex ie has many facets.
    - Neither Brazil nor Germany is a freind. Both have caused enormous harm to the US over the last 20 years.

    - In the case of Germany there are a number of pertinent points to think about.
    - The German government has had early warnings about planed terrorist attacks given it from the NSA operations. It told the public but did not explain the programs, German participation in the programs nor the importance of the programs, leaving the public mistrustful of the US, which is generally disliked.
    - Ms Merkel wants to transfer more sovereignty to Europe, because the Euro is doomed, if the Euroland is not strengthened. As the German and a number of other populations around Europe do not want this Ms Merkel and a number of European Grandees are resorting to the "External Enemy" ploy to firm their backing against anticipated resistance to their deepening of Europe policies.
    - Successive German governments have been breaking German civil and criminal laws (at least as it has been interpreted by the courts) for twenty years in allowing data mining other things being carried out by US security agencies. This means that all major parties were involved. As German courts are in no way free to pick this up, there is no immediate danger to those involved. If the population pick up on the breadth of these activities, however, that could change and certainly the modus operandi of government would change radically to the detriment of the present holders of power. Ms Merkel is under enormous pressure to prevent this happening and it is therefore worth the risk to attack the Americans to deflect attention from the own wrong doing.
    The things you have listed are still no excuse for what our government has been doing to heads of state around the world. Period. No excuses.
    Know the truth and the truth will make you mad, because the truth has no agenda.

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    Re: Exclusive: Germany, Brazil Turn to U.N. to Restrain American Spies

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    What the Americans were doing is totally understandable and legitimate. If the French, Germans, British or Italians are not listening to what goes on in the UN, EU or embassies and trying to get as close as possible to secret communications by shady heads of state, I would be very surprised. As a citizen of such countries I would be furious that the people I pay to do these things were not doing their jobs.

    What Obama has done poorly is to explain what we do and why it is so very necessary. He has fallen down badly on this front.
    Completely disagree.

    There is no excuse you can give to monitor others...we are not the world police and we do not have authority to eavesdrop on other heads of state.

    Obama hasnt done a poor job explaining this, he has done a poor job by allowing this to happen in the first place.
    Know the truth and the truth will make you mad, because the truth has no agenda.

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    Re: Exclusive: Germany, Brazil Turn to U.N. to Restrain American Spies

    Quote Originally Posted by Imnukingfutz View Post
    The things you have listed are still no excuse for what our government has been doing to heads of state around the world. Period. No excuses.
    What do you mean "doing to heads of state"? You gotta be kidding. It is totally legitimate to tap their phones, if they are doing things that cause harm to your people. In the case of the Germans it is unquestional that they harmed American interests and cause American body count in the last 20 years. It would be irresponsible not to bug their assets.

    As a matter of fact, it is not an excuse. It is a necessity to understand as exactly as possible, what is happening. If you do not, you are putting your people and assets at risk. If the Brazilians, Germans, French etc are not trying to do the same to the US, their people are neglecting their duties and probably making the world a more dangerous place, because they understand, what is going on less well, than they could and will make poorer decisions.

    The only thing that was bad, was Obama not explaining to the world what and why he was doing things as he did. Don't kid yourself. Every leader out there knew, what the US was doing. They do it themselves and many had collaborated with NSA in doing it. But they were telling their people differently and misleading them, breaking their own laws sometimes. Now they are under pressure and see a chance of using the "External Enemy" argument to strengthen their domestic positions. That is worrying.

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    Re: Exclusive: Germany, Brazil Turn to U.N. to Restrain American Spies

    Quote Originally Posted by Imnukingfutz View Post
    Completely disagree.

    There is no excuse you can give to monitor others...we are not the world police and we do not have authority to eavesdrop on other heads of state.

    Obama hasnt done a poor job explaining this, he has done a poor job by allowing this to happen in the first place.
    Come off it. Monitoring others is an absolute necessity and any country that does not do it is irresponsible. You realize that monitoring others' actions reduces the probability of military conflict, don't you? Just look at the game theory implications of more and less understanding of what is happening.

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    Re: Exclusive: Germany, Brazil Turn to U.N. to Restrain American Spies

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    What do you mean "doing to heads of state"? You gotta be kidding. It is totally legitimate to tap their phones, if they are doing things that cause harm to your people. In the case of the Germans it is unquestional that they harmed American interests and cause American body count in the last 20 years. It would be irresponsible not to bug their assets.

    As a matter of fact, it is not an excuse. It is a necessity to understand as exactly as possible, what is happening. If you do not, you are putting your people and assets at risk. If the Brazilians, Germans, French etc are not trying to do the same to the US, their people are neglecting their duties and probably making the world a more dangerous place, because they understand, what is going on less well, than they could and will make poorer decisions.

    The only thing that was bad, was Obama not explaining to the world what and why he was doing things as he did. Don't kid yourself. Every leader out there knew, what the US was doing. They do it themselves and many had collaborated with NSA in doing it. But they were telling their people differently and misleading them, breaking their own laws sometimes. Now they are under pressure and see a chance of using the "External Enemy" argument to strengthen their domestic positions. That is worrying.
    Bull squeeze.

    Our governmental authority ends at our shores, not in a piece of electronics in someones pocket in another country. Our government is NOT the worlds government, although I am sure it would like to think it is.

    How can a government say it is for private rights when they turn right around and violate someones privacy?

    It may not bother you, by your post you seem to be happy about it. Just remember, every word you say or type is monitored by Big Brother. Welcome to 1984.
    Know the truth and the truth will make you mad, because the truth has no agenda.

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