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Exclusive: Germany, Brazil Turn to U.N. to Restrain American Spies

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Imnukingfutz

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Exclusive: Germany, Brazil Turn to U.N. to Restrain American Spies | The Cable

Brazil and Germany today joined forces to press for the adoption of a U.N. General Resolution that promotes the right of privacy on the internet, marking the first major international effort to restrain the National Security Agency's intrusions into the online communications of foreigners
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The effort follows a German claim that the American spy agency may have tapped the private telephone of German Chancellor Angela Merkel and dozens of other world leaders.
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Brazilian leader Dilma Rousseff denounced NSA espionage against her country as "a breach of international law"
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Its bad when you spy on your allies and loose even more credibility to the world.

This administration has done more harm in this world than the Bush Administration ever did...and we have a little over 3 years left of this administrations debacles left to deal with.
 
Imnukingfutz said:
Exclusive: Germany, Brazil Turn to U.N. to Restrain American Spies | The Cable







Its bad when you spy on your allies and loose even more credibility to the world.

This administration has done more harm in this world than the Bush Administration ever did...and we have a little over 3 years left of this administrations debacles left to deal with.
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Uh, the main leak that I've recently seen on the topic was of a memo sent during the Bush administration.

Just saying.
 
iangb said:
Uh, the main leak that I've recently seen on the topic was of a memo sent during the Bush administration.

Just saying.
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I don't think we should be saying things like "Look at how bad he is compared to XXXX", we should be making objective statements about how bad he is. Simple fact is, Obama promised to have the most transparent administration in history, to stop the wars, and to rebuild international relations. His actions have been the exact opposite of all 3.

At some point you have to blame the current administration for the way things are being run, and I think 5 years in is more than enough time.
 
Imnukingfutz said:
Exclusive: Germany, Brazil Turn to U.N. to Restrain American Spies | The Cable

Its bad when you spy on your allies and loose even more credibility to the world.

This administration has done more harm in this world than the Bush Administration ever did...and we have a little over 3 years left of this administrations debacles left to deal with.
Click to expand...

The "spy" thing is quite complex ie has many facets.
- Neither Brazil nor Germany is a freind. Both have caused enormous harm to the US over the last 20 years.

- In the case of Germany there are a number of pertinent points to think about.
- The German government has had early warnings about planed terrorist attacks given it from the NSA operations. It told the public but did not explain the programs, German participation in the programs nor the importance of the programs, leaving the public mistrustful of the US, which is generally disliked.
- Ms Merkel wants to transfer more sovereignty to Europe, because the Euro is doomed, if the Euroland is not strengthened. As the German and a number of other populations around Europe do not want this Ms Merkel and a number of European Grandees are resorting to the "External Enemy" ploy to firm their backing against anticipated resistance to their deepening of Europe policies.
- Successive German governments have been breaking German civil and criminal laws (at least as it has been interpreted by the courts) for twenty years in allowing data mining other things being carried out by US security agencies. This means that all major parties were involved. As German courts are in no way free to pick this up, there is no immediate danger to those involved. If the population pick up on the breadth of these activities, however, that could change and certainly the modus operandi of government would change radically to the detriment of the present holders of power. Ms Merkel is under enormous pressure to prevent this happening and it is therefore worth the risk to attack the Americans to deflect attention from the own wrong doing.
 
Imnukingfutz said:
Exclusive: Germany, Brazil Turn to U.N. to Restrain American Spies | The Cable

Its bad when you spy on your allies and loose even more credibility to the world.

This administration has done more harm in this world than the Bush Administration ever did...and we have a little over 3 years left of this administrations debacles left to deal with.
Click to expand...

What the Americans were doing is totally understandable and legitimate. If the French, Germans, British or Italians are not listening to what goes on in the UN, EU or embassies and trying to get as close as possible to secret communications by shady heads of state, I would be very surprised. As a citizen of such countries I would be furious that the people I pay to do these things were not doing their jobs.

What Obama has done poorly is to explain what we do and why it is so very necessary. He has fallen down badly on this front.
 
joG said:
The "spy" thing is quite complex ie has many facets.
- Neither Brazil nor Germany is a freind. Both have caused enormous harm to the US over the last 20 years.

- In the case of Germany there are a number of pertinent points to think about.
- The German government has had early warnings about planed terrorist attacks given it from the NSA operations. It told the public but did not explain the programs, German participation in the programs nor the importance of the programs, leaving the public mistrustful of the US, which is generally disliked.
- Ms Merkel wants to transfer more sovereignty to Europe, because the Euro is doomed, if the Euroland is not strengthened. As the German and a number of other populations around Europe do not want this Ms Merkel and a number of European Grandees are resorting to the "External Enemy" ploy to firm their backing against anticipated resistance to their deepening of Europe policies.
- Successive German governments have been breaking German civil and criminal laws (at least as it has been interpreted by the courts) for twenty years in allowing data mining other things being carried out by US security agencies. This means that all major parties were involved. As German courts are in no way free to pick this up, there is no immediate danger to those involved. If the population pick up on the breadth of these activities, however, that could change and certainly the modus operandi of government would change radically to the detriment of the present holders of power. Ms Merkel is under enormous pressure to prevent this happening and it is therefore worth the risk to attack the Americans to deflect attention from the own wrong doing.
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The things you have listed are still no excuse for what our government has been doing to heads of state around the world. Period. No excuses.
 
joG said:
What the Americans were doing is totally understandable and legitimate. If the French, Germans, British or Italians are not listening to what goes on in the UN, EU or embassies and trying to get as close as possible to secret communications by shady heads of state, I would be very surprised. As a citizen of such countries I would be furious that the people I pay to do these things were not doing their jobs.

What Obama has done poorly is to explain what we do and why it is so very necessary. He has fallen down badly on this front.
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Completely disagree.

There is no excuse you can give to monitor others...we are not the world police and we do not have authority to eavesdrop on other heads of state.

Obama hasnt done a poor job explaining this, he has done a poor job by allowing this to happen in the first place.
 
Imnukingfutz said:
The things you have listed are still no excuse for what our government has been doing to heads of state around the world. Period. No excuses.
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What do you mean "doing to heads of state"? You gotta be kidding. It is totally legitimate to tap their phones, if they are doing things that cause harm to your people. In the case of the Germans it is unquestional that they harmed American interests and cause American body count in the last 20 years. It would be irresponsible not to bug their assets.

As a matter of fact, it is not an excuse. It is a necessity to understand as exactly as possible, what is happening. If you do not, you are putting your people and assets at risk. If the Brazilians, Germans, French etc are not trying to do the same to the US, their people are neglecting their duties and probably making the world a more dangerous place, because they understand, what is going on less well, than they could and will make poorer decisions.

The only thing that was bad, was Obama not explaining to the world what and why he was doing things as he did. Don't kid yourself. Every leader out there knew, what the US was doing. They do it themselves and many had collaborated with NSA in doing it. But they were telling their people differently and misleading them, breaking their own laws sometimes. Now they are under pressure and see a chance of using the "External Enemy" argument to strengthen their domestic positions. That is worrying.
 
Imnukingfutz said:
Completely disagree.

There is no excuse you can give to monitor others...we are not the world police and we do not have authority to eavesdrop on other heads of state.

Obama hasnt done a poor job explaining this, he has done a poor job by allowing this to happen in the first place.
Click to expand...

Come off it. Monitoring others is an absolute necessity and any country that does not do it is irresponsible. You realize that monitoring others' actions reduces the probability of military conflict, don't you? Just look at the game theory implications of more and less understanding of what is happening.
 
joG said:
What do you mean "doing to heads of state"? You gotta be kidding. It is totally legitimate to tap their phones, if they are doing things that cause harm to your people. In the case of the Germans it is unquestional that they harmed American interests and cause American body count in the last 20 years. It would be irresponsible not to bug their assets.

As a matter of fact, it is not an excuse. It is a necessity to understand as exactly as possible, what is happening. If you do not, you are putting your people and assets at risk. If the Brazilians, Germans, French etc are not trying to do the same to the US, their people are neglecting their duties and probably making the world a more dangerous place, because they understand, what is going on less well, than they could and will make poorer decisions.

The only thing that was bad, was Obama not explaining to the world what and why he was doing things as he did. Don't kid yourself. Every leader out there knew, what the US was doing. They do it themselves and many had collaborated with NSA in doing it. But they were telling their people differently and misleading them, breaking their own laws sometimes. Now they are under pressure and see a chance of using the "External Enemy" argument to strengthen their domestic positions. That is worrying.
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Bull squeeze.

Our governmental authority ends at our shores, not in a piece of electronics in someones pocket in another country. Our government is NOT the worlds government, although I am sure it would like to think it is.

How can a government say it is for private rights when they turn right around and violate someones privacy?

It may not bother you, by your post you seem to be happy about it. Just remember, every word you say or type is monitored by Big Brother. Welcome to 1984.
 
joG said:
Come off it. Monitoring others is an absolute necessity and any country that does not do it is irresponsible. You realize that monitoring others' actions reduces the probability of military conflict, don't you? Just look at the game theory implications of more and less understanding of what is happening.
Click to expand...

I cant believe you are defending spying on friends and foes alike....on their private communications system.

We have Saudi Arabia who turned its back on us, Brazil & Germany are going to the UN for something to be done about this and I am sure other countries are going to join in on that action.

Its pathetic. Our reputation in the world has fallen so far in the past 10 or so years and its only getting worse. Not only are we a laughing stock in the world, we are an untrustworthy laughing stock.
 
joG said:
The "spy" thing is quite complex ie has many facets.
- Neither Brazil nor Germany is a freind. Both have caused enormous harm to the US over the last 20 years.

- In the case of Germany there are a number of pertinent points to think about.
- The German government has had early warnings about planed terrorist attacks given it from the NSA operations. It told the public but did not explain the programs, German participation in the programs nor the importance of the programs, leaving the public mistrustful of the US, which is generally disliked.
- Ms Merkel wants to transfer more sovereignty to Europe, because the Euro is doomed, if the Euroland is not strengthened. As the German and a number of other populations around Europe do not want this Ms Merkel and a number of European Grandees are resorting to the "External Enemy" ploy to firm their backing against anticipated resistance to their deepening of Europe policies.
- Successive German governments have been breaking German civil and criminal laws (at least as it has been interpreted by the courts) for twenty years in allowing data mining other things being carried out by US security agencies. This means that all major parties were involved. As German courts are in no way free to pick this up, there is no immediate danger to those involved. If the population pick up on the breadth of these activities, however, that could change and certainly the modus operandi of government would change radically to the detriment of the present holders of power. Ms Merkel is under enormous pressure to prevent this happening and it is therefore worth the risk to attack the Americans to deflect attention from the own wrong doing.
Click to expand...

I've heard a lot of stupid stuff in my life.. and continue to hear it.. but you sure take the cake for this week.

I usually don't post those statements without going into detail... but with your blurt... i wouldn't even know where to start. It's subjective bogus from top to end.
 
Imnukingfutz said:
I cant believe you are defending spying on friends and foes alike....on their private communications system.

We have Saudi Arabia who turned its back on us, Brazil & Germany are going to the UN for something to be done about this and I am sure other countries are going to join in on that action.

Its pathetic. Our reputation in the world has fallen so far in the past 10 or so years and its only getting worse. Not only are we a laughing stock in the world, we are an untrustworthy laughing stock.
Click to expand...

First of all, Germany and Brazil have not been acting as a friends for many years and it is an absolutely necessity to keep an eye on such dangerous players.
Second, it is silly to assume a nation can be a "friend" in the first place. Countries can have similar cultures and closely aligned national interests and these can be stable for extended periods such as between the US, Canada, England or Australia possibly Mexico and in a somewhat other form with Taiwan, Japan or South Korea. But with Germany? They hate us. And anyone that tells you differently is either performing a public policy lip service, lying or ignorant.
I am a German specialist, know Thousands of Germans and have a lot of personal friends, follow the public Media closely and read a good number of German papers regularly. Believe me: They are not friends. Do not ever rely on them for anything.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
Obama promised to have the most transparent administration in history, to stop the wars, and to rebuild international relations. His actions have been the exact opposite of all 3.

At some point you have to blame the current administration for the way things are being run, and I think 5 years in is more than enough time.
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Yep and then he was elected, some national security advisers showed up gave him a briefing - and he had to realize that the goals of some promises are simply inconsistent with how the real world works. If you think this wouldn't happen with any president, you're out of your noggin', my friend.
 
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NeoVsMatrix said:
I've heard a lot of stupid stuff in my life.. and continue to hear it.. but you sure take the cake for this week.

I usually don't post those statements without going into detail... but with your blurt... i wouldn't even know where to start. It's subjective bogus from top to end.
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Germany and European relations is one of my specialties and I have been following the domestic politics, international relations and economics carefully for many years. I know a good number of the German political and media players some very well.
Of course everything is subjective but that is trivial stuff. The important thing is, that every point made is factually correct. Possibly you should check it out.
 
The notion that every country spies is no excuse. Spying on heads of states telephone conversations is unforgivable. Come out clean with an apology to all those concerned.
 
Hatuey said:
Yep and then he was elected, some national security advisers showed up gave him a briefing - and he had to realize that the goals of some promises are simply inconsistent with how the real world works. If you think this wouldn't happen with any president, you're out of your noggin', my friend.
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Obama looks especially bad, because of the hype made by and around him. What is astounding is that a lot of people seem to have believed he could walk on water and would. Now they are disappointed.

But he fell down in this case, because he has not been very straight forward. Any country has to spy and the US has been doing so in close coordination with their allies. The political class in these countries knew what was going on and profited from it. The data mining has increased security without any doubt. But this was not made enough clear and brought home to the peoples around the world. That is something Obama should have done.

That a number of countries are utilizing the upset in their populations over this is obvious. In Brazil we see, if I see it correctly and I am not a Brazil specialist, a government that needs to stabilize itself in some way and in Germany, where I am a specialist, the Problems with the Euro require an instrument to shove sovereignty to the EU against the wishes of the people in order to save the misshapen currency. To do this type of thing "foreign enemies" are always good.
 
Hatuey said:
Yep and then he was elected, some national security advisers showed up gave him a briefing - and he had to realize that the goals of some promises are simply inconsistent with how the real world works. If you think this wouldn't happen with any president, you're out of your noggin', my friend.
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Incorrect, as every administration prior to him has been more transparent. He's gone after journalists for ****'s sake. You're going to sit there and tell me he had no choice? You'll defend him on anything, won't you?

Even if you accepted that as fact that "He just can't do anything about it", he's still a ****ing liar, plain and simple. He hasn't delivered on really any of his promises.
 
RDS said:
The notion that every country spies is no excuse. Spying on heads of states telephone conversations is unforgivable. Come out clean with an apology to all those concerned.
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Why? Heads of state communicate important messages and have been known to do things that harmed other countries badly. Please explain why these people should be exempt? I think it would be a grave breach of duty to neglect reading their mail and listening to their conversations.
 
joG said:
Why? Heads of state communicate important messages and have been known to do things that harmed other countries badly. Please explain why these people should be exempt? I think it would be a grave breach of duty to neglect reading their mail and listening to their conversations.
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The simple answer is put yourself in their shoes.
 
Hatuey said:
Prove it.
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I guess you just cut out the rest of my point where I elaborated about him going after journalists? Nah, if you're too god damn lazy to reply to my points, there's really not any reason for me to continue providing more.
 
RDS said:
The notion that every country spies is no excuse. Spying on heads of states telephone conversations is unforgivable. Come out clean with an apology to all those concerned.
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All countries spy or attempt to spy on other world leaders and businesses. Just dont get caught.. the US did, and now has to suffer the political consequences of this.

But far from all country spies on million of citizens of other countries and their own citizens on a regular basis, and it is this fact that have pushed people like Snowden to leak the facts to the public.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
there's really not any reason for me to continue providing more.
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I too would back off if I had made an outrageously ridiculous claim that would be proven wrong the minute I qualified it with a standard. I ignored the rest of your long diatribe about how evil and doo-doo headed Obama is. It's irrelevant to the claim you made. Only wait...

I elaborated about him going after journalists?
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That's the standard you've set for being more transparent than Obama? Fine.

Nixon:

Nixon plot against newspaper columnist detailed - politics | NBC News

They launched an extraordinary campaign to smear and discredit the journalist who, more than anyone else, was bedeviling them by publishing government secrets: newspaper columnist Jack Anderson.
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Bush:

Bush's War On The Press - CBS News

As Eric Alterman detailed in a May 9 report in these pages, the Administration has scrapped enforcement of the Freedom of Information Act and has made it harder for reporters to do their jobs by refusing to cooperate with even the most basic requests for comment and data from government agencies.
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There you have two administrations who have done worse things. They weren't engaging in some action you subjectively thought as being "going after journalists". They blocked out and harassed journalists. Which makes this:

as every administration prior to him has been more transparent.
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False. Now, run along. This is way above your skill level.
 
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