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Thread: Exclusive: Germany, Brazil Turn to U.N. to Restrain American Spies

  1. #41
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    Re: Exclusive: Germany, Brazil Turn to U.N. to Restrain American Spies

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    You are right. That is why it was such poor judgement by the government not to explain much more forcefully, what we do and why. It was not enough that the governments around the world understood and helped in many of the operations and even have contracts with the US that allow many of the things now being decried. Our government should have been out there explaining loud and clear what they were doing.

    Possobly we can gain an advantage out of this, however. If the thing goes to the UN Obama can make clear that the US is a supporter of stopping all spying and will do so as soon as the UN believably, robustly and generally guarantees international security
    of all people and peoples.
    The problem with your argument is the word "many." That is a word that implies one thing but can in fact mean many things due to its ambiguity. I would take your perspective more seriously if you were better able to quantify how much of our overseas activities had been explicitly authorized or contracted for versus how many had not.

    Aside from that, the UN will never be given the kind of power needed to make any such guarantees.
    I'm already gearing up for Finger Vote 2014.

    Just for reference, means my post was a giant steaming pile of sarcasm.

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    Re: Exclusive: Germany, Brazil Turn to U.N. to Restrain American Spies

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    That we should be embarrassed is true. We have not explained well and widely, why we do what we do. That would have been Obama's job.

    But it would be silly to be ashamed of our government's having done, what we mandated it by law pay them to do. If it had nor been looking to know, what dangerous countries' leaders are doing, I for my part would be pretty angry.
    To spy on another country, especially one that is not considered an enemy state but an ally and trade partner is something to be embarrassed about. Further more spying on them on their personal cell phone is even worse.

    Our governments authority ends where our shore line ends.

    Yes, I am embarrassed, that my government would stoop so low. Actually embarrassed is a soft word...I am ashamed of my governments actions.
    Know the truth and the truth will make you mad, because the truth has no agenda.

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    Re: Exclusive: Germany, Brazil Turn to U.N. to Restrain American Spies

    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalEvilDan View Post
    The problem with your argument is the word "many." That is a word that implies one thing but can in fact mean many things due to its ambiguity. I would take your perspective more seriously if you were better able to quantify how much of our overseas activities had been explicitly authorized or contracted for versus how many had not.

    Aside from that, the UN will never be given the kind of power needed to make any such guarantees.
    Problem with exact quantification is, that a lot of the things going on are secret. We do know, however, that Dr Steinmeier head of the Chancellery under Schröder signed a paper allowing American services to carry out any spying on German territory necessary to the security of the troops. I do not have a copy of the document, but Steinmeier has admitted to its existence and refused to quantify its breadth of application. Whether there were further contracts is difficult to know. But concludent behavior by the bureaucracies of the countries there was certainly, which for a foreign interest is very similar to legality, as the government of the other assumes responsibility.
    The German and French security services exchanged data on individual suspects derived from the data mining each was carrying out. This means the people knew what the capabilities of the others were. The BND worked with NSA at Bad Aibling and now has taken over the sight. As far as the wire tapping and data mining are concerned, it may have been illegal for the local government to mine data (which is certainly the case in Germany) and the governments had deceived their people in respect to it being done, but it had been allowed by the government and there Bureaucrats had used the mined data and participated in some of the activity. This is one reason, it has not been taken up by the government till this point.

    Whether or not tapping the Chancellor phone is necessary for the security of troops stationed in Germany or not is debatable. I could probably make the point rather decisively. The same is true for German embassy or the ministries.

    Where concludent behavior is not given I would say, that we are talking about a totally different area. And do not let this silly chatter about trust and friendship and all trick you. After all, Germany, France or Russia have been a rather ambiguous and often destructive players in the last 20 years and have cost a lot of US treasure and many American lives. I would be horrified, if the US did not spy on these countries and do everything possible to know what the Heads of government are thinking, doing messaging on their phones. And I would be very disappointed in the Russians, French or Germans if they are not spying on the US. After all, they would be neglecting the security of their people. This is old fashioned spying albeit with new tools. And to that I would say that it is expected national behavior. Every country does it and if they do not, they are irresponsible.

    My advise to Merkel, Schultz and Holland would be to fire the guys on their own security that allowed it to happen. They were not doing their jobs.

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    Re: Exclusive: Germany, Brazil Turn to U.N. to Restrain American Spies

    Quote Originally Posted by Imnukingfutz View Post
    To spy on another country, especially one that is not considered an enemy state but an ally and trade partner is something to be embarrassed about. Further more spying on them on their personal cell phone is even worse.

    Our governments authority ends where our shore line ends.

    Yes, I am embarrassed, that my government would stoop so low. Actually embarrassed is a soft word...I am ashamed of my governments actions.
    I think you would find it not a low art but a high art to spy at that level.

    And to speak truth. I would be horrified it the government did not practice spying as long as the world is organized as a free for all and winner takes all jungle. When the UN or some other international Organization is willing, able and legitimized to guaranty international security for all populations, we can talk again. But until that time comes I personally think it is dangerous naiveté to demand spying and many other activities to be discontinued. And Game Theory as well as historical evidence seems to bear this out.

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    Re: Exclusive: Germany, Brazil Turn to U.N. to Restrain American Spies

    Quote Originally Posted by Imnukingfutz View Post
    Exclusive: Germany, Brazil Turn to U.N. to Restrain American Spies | The Cable







    Its bad when you spy on your allies and loose even more credibility to the world.

    This administration has done more harm in this world than the Bush Administration ever did...and we have a little over 3 years left of this administrations debacles left to deal with.



    That's your opinion, which you are entitled to and which I will ignore because I do not find it credible.




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    Re: Exclusive: Germany, Brazil Turn to U.N. to Restrain American Spies

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    Problem with exact quantification is, that a lot of the things going on are secret. We do know, however, that Dr Steinmeier head of the Chancellery under Schröder signed a paper allowing American services to carry out any spying on German territory necessary to the security of the troops. I do not have a copy of the document, but Steinmeier has admitted to its existence and refused to quantify its breadth of application. Whether there were further contracts is difficult to know. But concludent behavior by the bureaucracies of the countries there was certainly, which for a foreign interest is very similar to legality, as the government of the other assumes responsibility.

    The German and French security services exchanged data on individual suspects derived from the data mining each was carrying out. This means the people knew what the capabilities of the others were. The BND worked with NSA at Bad Aibling and now has taken over the sight. As far as the wire tapping and data mining are concerned, it may have been illegal for the local government to mine data (which is certainly the case in Germany) and the governments had deceived their people in respect to it being done, but it had been allowed by the government and there Bureaucrats had used the mined data and participated in some of the activity. This is one reason, it has not been taken up by the government till this point.
    So in other words, you've got rumors, innuendo and indefinite phrasing.

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    Whether or not tapping the Chancellor phone is necessary for the security of troops stationed in Germany or not is debatable. I could probably make the point rather decisively. The same is true for German embassy or the ministries.
    You can make the argument all day long, but you then have to pay the tab when they find out about it and react with the predictable (and entirely appropriate) outrage. If we caught them spying on us, we'd make them pay.

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    Where concludent behavior is not given I would say, that we are talking about a totally different area. And do not let this silly chatter about trust and friendship and all trick you. After all, Germany, France or Russia have been a rather ambiguous and often destructive players in the last 20 years and have cost a lot of US treasure and many American lives.
    Forget Russia, this is the first time Russia has come up in the thread. I do not believe that, beyond competition in matters of trade and so forth, that your accusations regarding Germany and France are accurate. I'd ask for illustrations of what you meant, but you've already proven that being ... definitive ... isn't your strong suit.

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    I would be horrified, if the US did not spy on these countries and do everything possible to know what the Heads of government are thinking, doing messaging on their phones. And I would be very disappointed in the Russians, French or Germans if they are not spying on the US. After all, they would be neglecting the security of their people. This is old fashioned spying albeit with new tools. And to that I would say that it is expected national behavior. Every country does it and if they do not, they are irresponsible.

    My advise to Merkel, Schultz and Holland would be to fire the guys on their own security that allowed it to happen. They were not doing their jobs.
    Again, reality versus diplomatic reality. It doesn't matter that everybody does it, we were going to get caught eventually and this is the inevitable response to our exposure.
    I'm already gearing up for Finger Vote 2014.

    Just for reference, means my post was a giant steaming pile of sarcasm.

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    Re: Exclusive: Germany, Brazil Turn to U.N. to Restrain American Spies

    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalEvilDan View Post
    So in other words, you've got rumors, innuendo and indefinite phrasing.
    Not really. Some of the stuff I mentioned was published and I have known and know a number of the players very well. And anyone who understands intelligence and the reasons spying is a necessity that actually reduces the probability of making wrong decisions up to the point of war would realize how crazy it is to demand unilateral cessation.

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    Re: Exclusive: Germany, Brazil Turn to U.N. to Restrain American Spies

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    Not really. Some of the stuff I mentioned was published and I have known and know a number of the players very well. And anyone who understands intelligence and the reasons spying is a necessity that actually reduces the probability of making wrong decisions up to the point of war would realize how crazy it is to demand unilateral cessation.
    Whatever you say, seeing as how whatever you say is all you've given me to go on.
    I'm already gearing up for Finger Vote 2014.

    Just for reference, means my post was a giant steaming pile of sarcasm.

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    Re: Exclusive: Germany, Brazil Turn to U.N. to Restrain American Spies

    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalEvilDan View Post
    Whatever you say, seeing as how whatever you say is all you've given me to go on.
    Sure. All you need to do is read up. The German press and media are full up right now and if you take your time, you will decern the cracks.
    If you go back in time you will understand that the enmity is old and well nourished by the public media and a very large part of the private media.
    If you talk with politicians you will find they accept the anti American card as a valuable instrument.
    If you read a little Game Theory you will quickly understand why spying is a necessity in a world structured as our's is and actually reduces the probability of war.

    Bur I doubt you will be willing to do the necessary work.

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    Re: Exclusive: Germany, Brazil Turn to U.N. to Restrain American Spies

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    Bur I doubt you will be willing to do the necessary work.
    You made some grandiose claims, and when called upon to illustrate them with more than your own imprecise description, you failed to deliver. That's not a lack of anything on my part.
    I'm already gearing up for Finger Vote 2014.

    Just for reference, means my post was a giant steaming pile of sarcasm.

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