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Thread: Exclusive: Germany, Brazil Turn to U.N. to Restrain American Spies

  1. #31
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    Re: Exclusive: Germany, Brazil Turn to U.N. to Restrain American Spies

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Prove it. Show a link with all previous administrations and their charging of "whistleblowers" and not people charged under the Espionage Act, which is what you're referring to as whistleblowers are protected by the Whistleblower_Protection_Act. Here is the grand total for the Obama administration so far:

    8 Whistleblowers Charged With Violating the Espionage Act Under Obama - PolicyMic

    That is the total 8. Show that ALL previous administrations combined have charged less people with the Espionage Act or similar laws... wait... your claim is ridiculous:

    Here are the fourteenpeople I found disproving your claim:

    Aldrich Ames - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Robert Hanssen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Milestones: Dec. 13, 1963 - TIME

    Elizabeth Turrill Bentley, 55, onetime Communist whose disclosures of wartime Soviet espionage led to the conviction of more than a dozen top Reds between 1948 and 1951


    That's 14 people by my count charged under the same type of laws.



    Show that they were caught more than other administrations. Thanks.



    Show that previous administrations did tell people how many detainees they were holding. Thanks.



    Utterly false: U.S. pre-emptively refuses Sharif's challenge on drones - The Hindu



    Lol - oh alright, so now we're measuring by a standard that only the last 40 years can be measured by. Good to know you're not moving goal posts, otherwise I'd be shaking in my booties.
    Ha, I think it's funny that you're trying so hard to prove the "it's the least transparent administration in history" statement, which in and of itself is subjective, instead of my original statement which was:

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    I don't think we should be saying things like "Look at how bad he is compared to XXXX", we should be making objective statements about how bad he is. Simple fact is, Obama promised to have the most transparent administration in history, to stop the wars, and to rebuild international relations. His actions have been the exact opposite of all 3.

    At some point you have to blame the current administration for the way things are being run, and I think 5 years in is more than enough time.
    Even if it's not the 44th least transparent administration, it's not even in the top 40, and his promise was to be #1. My original statement was a statement of fact. He's simply a ****ing liar, and has no intention of making his administration transparent.

    You're so god damn preoccupied trying to defend your hero that you refuse to recognize the horrible things he's done.
    I've asked this once and I'll ask it again. Are you happy with the transparency of our government right now?
    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    I've got to say that it is shadenfreudalicious to see the rich and famous fucquewads on the coast suffering from the fires.

  2. #32
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    Re: Exclusive: Germany, Brazil Turn to U.N. to Restrain American Spies

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    Ha, I think it's funny that you're trying so hard to prove the "it's the least transparent administration in history" statement, which in and of itself is subjective, instead of my original statement which was:
    So you can't prove it? Good.

    Even if it's not the 44th least transparent administration, it's not even in the top 40, and his promise was to be #1.
    The founders wrote that all men were equal, if one examines "equality" according to them, it is proven to be the time where men were the LEAST equal. Hey, reality is a bitch. Get used to it.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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    Re: Exclusive: Germany, Brazil Turn to U.N. to Restrain American Spies

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    So you can't prove it? Good.



    The founders wrote that all men were equal, if one examines "equality" according to them, it is proven to be the time where men were the LEAST equal. Hey, reality is a bitch. Get used to it.
    I did prove it, you're not satisfied with the evidence, even after you derailing this thread into your own bull****.

    And I asked you a question twice and you ignored it both times. Not surprising, so I guess we're done here.
    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    I've got to say that it is shadenfreudalicious to see the rich and famous fucquewads on the coast suffering from the fires.

  4. #34
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    Re: Exclusive: Germany, Brazil Turn to U.N. to Restrain American Spies

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    I did prove it,
    Nope, you sir made claims. Saying " The Obama administration has charged more would-be whistleblowers with violating state secrecy laws than all previous administrations combined." is not proof. It's a claim. You essentially made claims to back up your first unproven claim. That's not proof of anything. I won't hold my breath waiting for you to provide any evidence for the claims you made to support your first claim. You seem to have trouble understanding the standard of proof you keep setting for yourself.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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    Re: Exclusive: Germany, Brazil Turn to U.N. to Restrain American Spies

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Nope, you sir made claims. Saying " The Obama administration has charged more would-be whistleblowers with violating state secrecy laws than all previous administrations combined." is not proof. It's a claim. You essentially made claims to back up your first unproven claim. That's not proof of anything. I won't hold my breath waiting for you to provide any evidence for the claims you made to support your first claim. You seem to have trouble understanding the standard of proof you keep setting for yourself.
    If you're too lazy to read my sources or even google it yourself, then too lazy to answer one question after being asked several times, I can't help you. Good day.
    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    I've got to say that it is shadenfreudalicious to see the rich and famous fucquewads on the coast suffering from the fires.

  6. #36
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    Re: Exclusive: Germany, Brazil Turn to U.N. to Restrain American Spies

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    If you're too lazy to read my sources or even google it yourself, then too lazy to answer one question after being asked several times, I can't help you. Good day.
    Your sources and claims aren't consistent. Which is why you refuse to actually cite the part of your sources which allegedly support your claims. As I said, I too would back off if I had made some outrageous claim. Tell us, was Edward Snowden charged with whistle blowing or theft of government property?
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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    Re: Exclusive: Germany, Brazil Turn to U.N. to Restrain American Spies

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    First of all, Germany and Brazil have not been acting as a friends for many years and it is an absolutely necessity to keep an eye on such dangerous players.
    Second, it is silly to assume a nation can be a "friend" in the first place. Countries can have similar cultures and closely aligned national interests and these can be stable for extended periods such as between the US, Canada, England or Australia possibly Mexico and in a somewhat other form with Taiwan, Japan or South Korea. But with Germany? They hate us. And anyone that tells you differently is either performing a public policy lip service, lying or ignorant.
    I am a German specialist, know Thousands of Germans and have a lot of personal friends, follow the public Media closely and read a good number of German papers regularly. Believe me: They are not friends. Do not ever rely on them for anything.
    You're mistaking the political and diplomatic reality for, well, reality. Since we're talking about the interactions of national governments (and this goes double for national governments acting on the world stage), who it is appropriate to call "friend" is very different than it would be on the street, just as what it is appropriate to be angry about is also very different. These governments could've privately invited the USA in to surveil each and every one of their citizens down to the regularity of their poops, but if that activity gets exposed to the public then they have to respond as if they had no idea. They could've been actively opposing our national interests at every turn, but unless it is straightforward enough to explain in a blunt headline ("GERMANY DROPS 10 TONS OF KITTENS ON WHITE HOUSE"), they still get to act outraged when we get caught sneaking around inside their borders.

    We can debate the necessity and legality and so on of what the US government has been doing all day long, but the fact we can't escape is that this is the inevitable conclusion of any human endeavor as far-reaching and/or complex as our signals intelligence gathering. Couple that with the diplomatic reality, and this international kerfluffle wasn't a question of "if" but "when."

    You can't oversimplify your perspective on something like this by saying it was absolutely necessary, because no matter how necessary it is there are going to be consequences. These consequences must be factored in before we get caught, but it's a bit late for that now. At this point, how expensive and enduring those consequences are depends entirely on how we as a nation respond to this recent exposure of our activities. International outrage only becomes irrelevant if you can supply all of your own economic needs and secure your interests without anyone else's cooperation.
    I'm already gearing up for Finger Vote 2014.

    Just for reference, means my post was a giant steaming pile of sarcasm.

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    Re: Exclusive: Germany, Brazil Turn to U.N. to Restrain American Spies

    Quote Originally Posted by Imnukingfutz View Post
    Put any rational you want to excuse it.

    Defending this has no excuse. Its pathetic and shameful.

    We aught to be damn embarrassed on how our government is doing whatever it can to ruin what little credibility and trust we have left in the world.
    That we should be embarrassed is true. We have not explained well and widely, why we do what we do. That would have been Obama's job.

    But it would be silly to be ashamed of our government's having done, what we mandated it by law pay them to do. If it had nor been looking to know, what dangerous countries' leaders are doing, I for my part would be pretty angry.

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    Re: Exclusive: Germany, Brazil Turn to U.N. to Restrain American Spies

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Your sources and claims aren't consistent. Which is why you refuse to actually cite the part of your sources which allegedly support your claims. As I said, I too would back off if I had made some outrageous claim. Tell us, was Edward Snowden charged with whistle blowing or theft of government property?
    Still waiting for the answer to that question. Are you happy with our government's current level of transparency?
    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    I've got to say that it is shadenfreudalicious to see the rich and famous fucquewads on the coast suffering from the fires.

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    Re: Exclusive: Germany, Brazil Turn to U.N. to Restrain American Spies

    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalEvilDan View Post
    You're mistaking the political and diplomatic reality for, well, reality. Since we're talking about the interactions of national governments (and this goes double for national governments acting on the world stage), who it is appropriate to call "friend" is very different than it would be on the street, just as what it is appropriate to be angry about is also very different. These governments could've privately invited the USA in to surveil each and every one of their citizens down to the regularity of their poops, but if that activity gets exposed to the public then they have to respond as if they had no idea. They could've been actively opposing our national interests at every turn, but unless it is straightforward enough to explain in a blunt headline ("GERMANY DROPS 10 TONS OF KITTENS ON WHITE HOUSE"), they still get to act outraged when we get caught sneaking around inside their borders.

    We can debate the necessity and legality and so on of what the US government has been doing all day long, but the fact we can't escape is that this is the inevitable conclusion of any human endeavor as far-reaching and/or complex as our signals intelligence gathering. Couple that with the diplomatic reality, and this international kerfluffle wasn't a question of "if" but "when."

    You can't oversimplify your perspective on something like this by saying it was absolutely necessary, because no matter how necessary it is there are going to be consequences. These consequences must be factored in before we get caught, but it's a bit late for that now. At this point, how expensive and enduring those consequences are depends entirely on how we as a nation respond to this recent exposure of our activities. International outrage only becomes irrelevant if you can supply all of your own economic needs and secure your interests without anyone else's cooperation.
    You are right. That is why it was such poor judgement by the government not to explain much more forcefully, what we do and why. It was not enough that the governments around the world understood and helped in many of the operations and even have contracts with the US that allow many of the things now being decried. Our government should have been out there explaining loud and clear what they were doing.

    Possobly we can gain an advantage out of this, however. If the thing goes to the UN Obama can make clear that the US is a supporter of stopping all spying and will do so as soon as the UN believably, robustly and generally guarantees international security
    of all people and peoples.

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