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Thread: Russia To Debate Taking Children Away From Gay Parents[W:127]

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    re: Russia To Debate Taking Children Away From Gay Parents[W:127]

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateMk1 View Post
    25,000 of them will NOT be adopted in this country before they reach age of majority. Which is worse no one who really gives a **** about you or being bullied? By the way they would probably be bullied anyhow because their parents are reprobates or dead or what have you.
    Ok they aren't going to be bullied. There gonna be made fun of relentlessly, made to hate themselves, picked on, hated, ostracized, and loathed. Public school system is a stomping ground, just ask any kid who is slightly different then the norm. Ask any red headed kid. Ask any overweight kid. Ask any one different. These kids are going to be a piñata. Why do you think all the new anti bullying laws have gone into action? Our media will have us believe that homosexuality is accepted but I don't think it is. I think that most of America makes fun of gays but we are to afraid to admit it. The label of being a hater is far to sticky so we just sit on out true opinions.

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    re: Russia To Debate Taking Children Away From Gay Parents[W:127]

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    never tires of presenting idiotic opinions without substantiation
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    re: Russia To Debate Taking Children Away From Gay Parents[W:127]

    Quote Originally Posted by herrwolf View Post
    Ok they aren't going to be bullied. There gonna be made fun of relentlessly, made to hate themselves, picked on, hated, ostracized, and loathed. Public school system is a stomping ground, just ask any kid who is slightly different then the norm. Ask any red headed kid. Ask any overweight kid. Ask any one different. These kids are going to be a piñata. Why do you think all the new anti bullying laws have gone into action? Our media will have us believe that homosexuality is accepted but I don't think it is. I think that most of America makes fun of gays but we are to afraid to admit it. The label of being a hater is far to sticky so we just sit on out true opinions.
    I bet if you asked the kids they would probably say they would prefer a family. Just saying.
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    re: Russia To Debate Taking Children Away From Gay Parents[W:127]

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateMk1 View Post
    I am not going to get into nuts and bolts of the whole is gay parents just as good as heterosexual parents. I believe they are inferior for the most part, simply because half of the observation of behavior differences and interactions children observe over their lives between their parents is absent. I would also make the observation that divorced unmarried parents are at similar disadvantage for the same reason. Most children are going to grow to be heterosexual and hence the need to see these interactions up close over a period of time. These are my opinions based my observations and having seen the results of several generations of children raised by my family which is quite large.

    I believe that the preference should go to heterosexual families as they are the predominate families in numbers over homosexual families and unless or until such time as the "identity" is known based on the probabilities being heterosexual will be the most likely outcome. I will state that if the "identity" of said child is homosexual then they should be adopted preferentially by homosexual families for the reasons I stated for heterosexual families modified of course for situation.

    You obviously believe differently that homosexual families can raise heterosexual children as effectively as heterosexual families. We will just have to disagree as I believe you are wrong in this case, with the caveat as in all human endeavors there are exceptions to the rule. As for your studies and proof ect, I am not that well read in your profession obviously, however as I am skeptical of the results and claims. The psychiatric profession is as much art as science as much as some in your profession claim to the contrary. Quite frankly the psychiatric profession is as subject to fads as any other and in my opinion more so. Therefor I am going to respectfully disagree with you on the matter.
    I appreciate your respectful disagreement. There is a difference between your belief and my position. My position does have empirical evidence substantiating it. Your belief does not. I would like to know what you base your belief on?
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    re: Russia To Debate Taking Children Away From Gay Parents[W:127]

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    I appreciate your respectful disagreement. There is a difference between your belief and my position. My position does have empirical evidence substantiating it. Your belief does not. I would like to know what you base your belief on?
    Familial history mainly, I have a VERY large extended family so there are lots of experience to draw on for all sorts of situations especially the how too's and how not too's of raising successful independent children into adults. Not necessarily empirical and most definitely anecdotal, none the less seeing enough examples with close interaction over very long periods of time does give an insight to what is required for successful child rearing.

    While definitely not as well read on the subject, (its not a favorite subject of mine though it can be fascinating in small doses.) my familial community and that's what we are a genuine community we are that large a family, have had some experience in these matters. We have found that heterosexual and homosexual parents are equivalently loving and genuine, and that up to puberty basically there is little if any difference or effect worth noting. The difference is after puberty were homosexual parents don't seem to quite relate as well heterosexual parents, to their heterosexual children hence causing more friction than would otherwise occur. Its a similar dynamic in a divorced household were only one parent predominates in the relationship with their children, though there are plenty of differences. We have our theories (many) as to why but sufficed to say that seems to be the consistent dynamic.

    As to your empirical evidence, I am not convinced as to it's validity. As I said before your profession has a tendency toward fads and that seems to be a fad. It is also has much more art and subjectivity than the other more "robust" sciences. Until I see conclusive evidence to the contrary I will hold to my opinion, which I consider to be right. While you may consider me wrong, my opinion counts for the one person that counts, that's me. That's just the way I see things.
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    re: Russia To Debate Taking Children Away From Gay Parents[W:127]

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    Did I stutter?

    I believe I said "them".
    Who's them? Your initial statement was not as clear as you think it was. I'm confused by it too. Is "them" the Russian law-makers? I may have more questions depending on your answer.
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    re: Russia To Debate Taking Children Away From Gay Parents[W:127]

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben K. View Post
    That's actually how the amendment is written? It reads more like a rambling partisan op ed than a law. I mean, it references studies, that isn't normal.
    This is the note that was written by Zuravlev and attached to the official documents as an explanation why the 69 article needs to be amended (Attachment 2).

    The proposed amendment is really short and says: (again used Google translate with some changes by moi, so it would make more sense)

    FEDERAL LAW

    On Amendments to Article 69 of the Family Code
    the Russian Federation


    Article 1

    To add to Article 69 of the Family Code of the Russian Federation
    (Collection of Laws of the Russian Federation, 1996, N 1, Art. 16; 2008
    N 17, art. 1756) a new paragraph as follows:
    "include non-traditional sexual relationships."

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    re: Russia To Debate Taking Children Away From Gay Parents[W:127]

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateMk1 View Post
    Just so you know I am with Bronson on this point, that a mother and father in a loving family is superior to a gay family all things being equal. I would also say that if it were true that all children were adopted and there was competition to adopt children the I would discriminate actively against a gay couple adopting. The only reason I am for it is like I said before, ANY loving family is better than none.
    I disagree with both of you. There simply is a lot of research that shows otherwise because you cannot have a caveat of "all things being equal" applied to humans. All people are different. And any two people together are going to be different than any other two people together, no matter their gender combination. Everyone brings different things to the table when it comes to childrearing and the fact of the matter is, that you cannot name a single thing that is absolutely necessary in a child's development that they must get it from a parent of a certain sex.

    I am a heterosexual raising my own children. But I would be willing to surrogate a child for a gay couple, provided my husband would be okay with me being a surrogate for any child, because there is no more reason to assume that two people of the opposite sex are better at raising children than two people of the same sex. In fact, there is plenty of research that shows that they do equally (at least) as well at raising children.
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    re: Russia To Debate Taking Children Away From Gay Parents[W:127]

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateMk1 View Post
    Familial history mainly, I have a VERY large extended family so there are lots of experience to draw on for all sorts of situations especially the how too's and how not too's of raising successful independent children into adults. Not necessarily empirical and most definitely anecdotal, none the less seeing enough examples with close interaction over very long periods of time does give an insight to what is required for successful child rearing.

    While definitely not as well read on the subject, (its not a favorite subject of mine though it can be fascinating in small doses.) my familial community and that's what we are a genuine community we are that large a family, have had some experience in these matters. We have found that heterosexual and homosexual parents are equivalently loving and genuine, and that up to puberty basically there is little if any difference or effect worth noting. The difference is after puberty were homosexual parents don't seem to quite relate as well heterosexual parents, to their heterosexual children hence causing more friction than would otherwise occur. Its a similar dynamic in a divorced household were only one parent predominates in the relationship with their children, though there are plenty of differences. We have our theories (many) as to why but sufficed to say that seems to be the consistent dynamic.

    As to your empirical evidence, I am not convinced as to it's validity. As I said before your profession has a tendency toward fads and that seems to be a fad. It is also has much more art and subjectivity than the other more "robust" sciences. Until I see conclusive evidence to the contrary I will hold to my opinion, which I consider to be right. While you may consider me wrong, my opinion counts for the one person that counts, that's me. That's just the way I see things.
    I have a very large family as well, and I can tell you that when you have a large family, a lot of your learning comes from people other than your parents. In fact, my own father was more like an uninterested older brother to us, rather than a father, despite being married to my mother and living with us til after I had joined the military. It all depends on the people involved and their personalities, not their genders.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

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    re: Russia To Debate Taking Children Away From Gay Parents[W:127]

    Quote Originally Posted by herrwolf View Post
    Ok they aren't going to be bullied. There gonna be made fun of relentlessly, made to hate themselves, picked on, hated, ostracized, and loathed. Public school system is a stomping ground, just ask any kid who is slightly different then the norm. Ask any red headed kid. Ask any overweight kid. Ask any one different. These kids are going to be a piñata. Why do you think all the new anti bullying laws have gone into action? Our media will have us believe that homosexuality is accepted but I don't think it is. I think that most of America makes fun of gays but we are to afraid to admit it. The label of being a hater is far to sticky so we just sit on out true opinions.
    Most children face ridicule during childhood. But there is no evidence that those children raised by same sex couples are more likely than any other child to face ridicule for that.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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