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California's brown signs bill permitting non-physician abortions [W:307]

Re: Liberals war on women takes big advance

AGENT J said:
the entertainment and laughs you provide me with always helps
your posts are free comedy, thank you
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you're welcome.
 
Re: Liberals war on women takes big advance

Dr. Chuckles said:
1) That doesn't address what I wrote. Being that nothing I wrote suggested women didn't have a right to pursue an abortion

2) You have been using "a male thing" in the sense that the restrictions have been established by men and that women prefer no restrictions (the decision on a social level). a) I showed how women also favor restriction in certain contexts. b) Now you are trying to equivocate that with the decision on a personal level, within those social restrictions. And you inexplicably do this by citing a male dominated body that helps establish what type of social restrictions are allowed

your argument is a mess
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Wow you caught on. Yes I think it is a personal decision and I think the male dominated SC made the right decision with the evidence before them. It happens. Some men actually care that without legal abortion, women would be subject to the horrors of their grandmothers. Horrors that still go on all over the world, but not here. Here a legal abortion is safe, and available. No need to turn to the back alley butchers of the 'pro-life" countries. They are really pro-illegal abortionist countries to me because those types of underworld creatures flourish under abortion bans. They are the people I see when I see Pro-life activists shooting doctors too. It's funny how one feeds on the other isn't it?
 
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Re: Liberals war on women takes big advance

iguanaman said:
Wow you caught on.
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no, your argument was pretty transparent from the beginning. Which is why I kept directly addressing it and all the flaws in it's logic. But that doesn't make it anymore valid.

Yes I think it is a personal decision and I think the male dominated SC made the right decision with the evidence before them. It happens. Some men actually care that without legal abortion, women would be subject to the horrors of their grandmothers.
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I keep telling you I have absolutely no issue with abortion.

No need to turn to the back alley butchers of the 'pro-life" countries.
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How is promoting the idea that skilled medical professionals should be involved promoting "back alley abortions"? Again, do you even think about what you write, or is it literally just what ever pops into your head?

They are really pro-illegal abortionist countries to me because those types of underworld creatures flourish under abortion bans.
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Well, the exact opposite mentality bears little difference and allows people like Gosnell to operate within the full knowledge of the state, unvesitigators, and pther medical professionals. Because the ideological push for "easy access" even trumps the mothers health and safety. So I fail to see how such is an improvement.

They are the people I see when I see Pro-life activists shooting doctors too. It's funny how one feeds on the other isn't it?
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I'm not sure what you mean, but am assuming it was some poor attempt at constructing a dig? if so, you're not someone who's personal opinion I would put much stock in, and see you as luittle more than a reactionary who lacks the most base thinking skills. So probably best to avoid it in the future, or at least make a better effort at it.
 
Re: Liberals war on women takes big advance

AGENT J said:
1.) not if we are talking qualification to perform this procedure. Nice try but its a fail. like i said the medical community and its studies disagree with your meaningless topically uneducated opinion.

2.) good save, im sure at this point nobody honest believes you but ill play along anyway, just have to take your word for it since but based on your post history thats meaningless.
anyway do tell

what would you like then?

the old bill to be reinstated and the addition that those people also can not provide medical care to those giving birth only medical doctors?

3.) medically this factually was not done
4.) says what fact? wow thats bigoted
5.) really? last i checked the medical procedures apply to EVERYONE and so does the law for murder what gosnell did.

if i do, you do it or a doctor does what gosnell did, we go to jail for murder. Its really that simple

facts defeat you again.
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There's nothing "bigoted" about anything I said. If Dr. Gosnell was doing it, statistically it's likely that it is happening in at least one of the thousands of other places that perform abortions in the us. And this law makes that easier to occur.
 
Re: Liberals war on women takes big advance

mac said:
There's nothing "bigoted" about anything I said. If Dr. Gosnell was doing it, statistically it's likely that it is happening in at least one of the thousands of other places that perform abortions in the us. And this law makes that easier to occur.
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No, this law doesn't make it any more legal to do what he did.
 
Re: Liberals war on women takes big advance

Deuce said:
No, this law doesn't make it any more legal to do what he did.
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Did I say it makes it more legal? No, I didn't. I said it makes it more likely.
 
Re: Liberals war on women takes big advance

Moderator's Warning:
....this is getting tiresome. One would think that seasoned posters would know what is considered a b/f/t post by now and how to avoid them. Its real simple...just DON'T address the poster, just the posts on topic comments. Anymore in this thread will constitute thread bans and infractions at the very least.
 
Re: Liberals war on women takes big advance

mac said:
1.)There's nothing "bigoted" about anything I said.
2.) If Dr. Gosnell was doing it, statistically it's likely that it is happening in at least one of the thousands of other places that perform abortions in the us.
3.)And this law makes that easier to occur.
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1.) actually your post is very bigoted, your view is people less than doctors are more likely to be less honorable. THats offensive to all those in the medical professional not doctors.
2.) which has NOTHING to do with your comment ignorantly condemning those in the medical field not doctors

the reality is that ANYBODY in the medical field could break the law and rules not just those not doctors

3.) this is factually not true, its not even close to reality its some made up BS you 're posting trying to sell that nobody educated and honest believes.
since this bill doesn't impact the rules and laws gosnell broke to get him in prison for murder theres NOTHING about it that makes murder easier to occur.
 
Re: Liberals war on women takes big advance

AGENT J said:
1.) actually it is very bigoted, your view is people less than doctors are more likely to be less honorable. THats offensive to all those in the medical professional not doctors.
2.) which has NOTHING to do with your comment ignorantly condemning those in the medical field not doctors

the reality is that ANYBODY in the medical field could break the law and rules not just those not doctors
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I think his point is one of basic economics: that doctors invest a substantial part of their lives pursuing a medical degree, ensuring that they can get into medical school, and then competing for a good residency. On the other hand, a nurse can invest little more than a few months at a vocational training program.

Clearly the doctor has more to lose
 
Re: Liberals war on women takes big advance

Dr. Chuckles said:
1/)I think his point is one of basic economics: that doctors invest a substantial part of their lives pursuing a medical degree, ensuring that they can get into medical school, and then competing for a good residency. On the other hand, a nurse can invest little more than a few months at a vocational training program.

2.)Clearly the doctor has more to lose
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1.) sorry thats factually incorrect since most "nurses" get medical/science degrees themselves depending on the type of nurse, some require much more than vocational training program. Wow thats offensive/ignorant too. But thats meaningless since people are trained for the task at hand like EVERY field, nothing is different here.


2.) they arent losing anything in fact groups like "Physicians for Reproductive Choice & Health" and many others support this because they too want people to have access to healthcare, they care about people.
Things like this allow them to be more efficient. They will be free to do things NOT routine, NOT ultra safe and other things that actually NEED their vast training and experiences has determined by the medical community.

His point failed and meaningless to the topic at hand and doesnt change how offensive it was to medical professional not doctors and probably them too.
 
Re: Liberals war on women takes big advance

AGENT J said:
1.) sorry thats factually incorrect since most "nurses" get medical/science degrees themselves depending on the type of nurse, some require much more than vocational training program.
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1) lol, you do understand that a medical degree takes longer, has residency requirements, and that medical school is more difficult to actually get into? So no, it's not "factually incorrect". it's factually correct.

2) I wrote "can invest", not "do invest" as in, while not all nurses invest as little training as a multiple month long vocational training program, they can. Which serves as a stark contrast to the minimal amount a doctor needs to invest, which is about ten years (which doesn't even get into the rigorous acceptance standards for medical school and the effort needed in maintaining a high GPA in lower education and their UG school)

Do you really need me to explain how a few months is less than 10 years?


Wow thats offensive/ignorant too. But thats meaningless since people are trained for the task at hand like EVERY field, nothing is different here.
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1) Yes, there is a clear difference: the degree of training and education, and the degree of time invested.

2) I am unsure how facts can be offensive
 
Re: Liberals war on women takes big advance

Dr. Chuckles said:
1) lol, you do understand that a medical degree takes longer, has residency requirements, and that medical school is more difficult to actually get into? So no, it's not "factually incorrect". it's factually correct.

2) I wrote "can invest", not "do invest" as in, while not all nurses invest as little training as a multiple month long vocational training program, they can. Which serves as a stark contrast to the minimal amount a doctor needs to invest, which is about ten years (which doesn't even get into the rigorous acceptance standards for medical school and the effort needed in maintaining a high GPA in lower education and their UG school)

3.)Do you really need me to explain how a few months is less than 10 years?




4) Yes, there is a clear difference: the degree of training and education, and the degree of time invested.

5) I am unsure how facts can be offensive
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1.) yes i do and thats meaningless to the discussion and you said "vocational training program."
PAs do lots of schooling, have degress and do residencies also way beyond what you said.
SO no your blanket statement has you wrote it was 100% factually wrong destroyed by facts as usual.

if you would like to back pedal and adjust your statement to be not factually wrong feel free but that wont change the fact the original was based off of ignorance of this topic.
Yes some nurses can get votech training and they will not be able to do this this.

2.) again meaningless see above

3.) also meaningless see above

4.) which renders the point moot and has not impact to doctors and this is way THEY support it, ill go with them over your meaningless opinion

5.) because you didnt use them you made a factually wrong blanket statement

Now before your post continues to fail and your next post is filed with deflections and lies, stop. THis conversation will go no further until you admit the facts

This blanket statement is factually not true for most "nurses" especially the majority of ones in the discussion at hand

doctors invest a substantial part of their lives pursuing a medical degree, ensuring that they can get into medical school, and then competing for a good residency. On the other hand, a nurse can invest little more than a few months at a vocational training program.

can PA and NPs require DEGREES
CNMs are the only one that get votech

what a doctor does is ABOVE whats needed to do these specific abortions thats way they dont lose out and the support this effort,

Brain surgeons arent hurt by somebody else doing the urinary catheter
 
Re: Liberals war on women takes big advance

AGENT J said:
1.) yes i do and thats meaningless to the discussion
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1) you just wrote "sorry thats factually incorrect since most "nurses" get medical/science degrees themselves" in response to me highl;ighting the disparity between the time invested in training for the two programs ...

2) I just covered this: I wrote "can invest", not "do invest". That in contrast to a doctor who at minimum needs to directly invest ten years of schooling and training to
his degree, a nurse can get by with a minimum of a few months in a vocational program


if you would like to back pedal
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No, backpedaling would be changing my argument, not highlighting how your rather bizarre interpretation and reading of it was obviously wrong


PAs do lots of schooling, have degrees and do residencies also way beyond what you said
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Again, your objection is addressed by very simple points

1) that I never claimed Physician assistants do none of these things.

2) that their education programs and residency requirements are not as demanding and and rigorous as physicians. Hence why they are "physician assistants", and not "physicians"


what a doctor does is ABOVE whats needed to do these specific abortions thats way they dont lose out and the support this effort
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I was clear about that being a possibility a few pages back. But that is irrelevant to what you are arguing: that doctors do not invest more than PA's and nurses into gaining their professional credentials

Second, something being possible does not establish it as fact
 
Re: Liberals war on women takes big advance

Dr. Chuckles said:
1) you just wrote "sorry thats factually incorrect since most "nurses" get medical/science degrees themselves" in response to me highl;ighting the disparity between the time invested in training for the two programs ...

2) I just covered this: I wrote "can invest", not "do invest". That in contrast to a doctor who at minimum needs to directly invest ten years of schooling and training to
his degree, a nurse can get by with a minimum of a few months in a vocational program




No, backpedaling would be changing my argument, not highlighting how your rather bizarre interpretation and reading of it was obviously wrong




Again, your objection is addressed by very simple points

1) that I never claimed Physician assistants do none of these things.

2) that their education programs and residency requirements are not as demanding and and rigorous as physicians. Hence why they are "physician assistants", and not "physicians"




I was clear about that being a possibility a few pages back. But that is irrelevant to what you are arguing: that doctors do not invest more than PA's and nurses into gaining their professional credentials

Second, something being possible does not establish it as fact
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thats what i thought, double talk, failed insults, deflections and facts still prove your failed blanket statment wrong
when you are ready to admit that the conversation can continue
Doctors and facts disagree with you and prove you wrong
 
Re: Liberals war on women takes big advance

AGENT J said:
thats what i thought, double talk, failed insults, deflections and facts still prove your failed blanket statment wrong
when you are ready to admit that the conversation can continue
Doctors and facts disagree with you and prove you wrong
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uhm, I just directly addressed what you wrote. You, on the other hand, are, again, making empty and unspecific declarations.
 
Re: Liberals war on women takes big advance

Dr. Chuckles said:
uhm, I just directly addressed what you wrote. You, on the other hand, are, again, making empty and unspecific declarations.
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its funny that you ever think id believe the lies you post
keep deflecting facts still prove your failed blanket statment wrong
when you are ready to admit that the conversation can continue
Doctors and facts disagree with you and prove you wrong
 
Re: Liberals war on women takes big advance

AGENT J said:
its funny that you ever think id believe the lies you post
keep deflecting facts still prove your failed blanket statment wrong
when you are ready to admit that the conversation can continue
Doctors and facts disagree with you and prove you wrong
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cool, I'm glad we could resolve this impass
 
Re: Liberals war on women takes big advance

Dr. Chuckles said:
cool, I'm glad we could resolve this impass
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your impass will be here until you make honest posts
keep deflecting facts still prove your failed blanket statment wrong
when you are ready to admit that the conversation can continue
Doctors and facts disagree with you and prove you wrong
 
Re: Liberals war on women takes big advance

AGENT J said:
your impass will be here until you make honest posts
keep deflecting facts still prove your failed blanket statment wrong
when you are ready to admit that the conversation can continue
Doctors and facts disagree with you and prove you wrong
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That is a very interesting observation. I will take it under consideration
 
Re: Liberals war on women takes big advance

Dr. Chuckles said:
That is a very interesting observation. I will take it under consideration
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Concession noted.
I have a knack for observing facts and im always willing to help with failing, inaccurate, factually wrong and or dishonest posts!
WHen you are ready to stay on topic let me know.
 
Re: Liberals war on women takes big advance

AGENT J said:
Concession noted.
I have a knack for observing facts and im always willing to help with failing, inaccurate, factually wrong and or dishonest posts!
WHen you are ready to stay on topic let me know.
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indubitably
 
Re: Liberals war on women takes big advance

ItAin'tFree said:
You have us fooled then.
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anytime you feel i mislabeled a fact by all me lets me know and bring your own factual proof to the table, id LOVE to read it
 
Re: Liberals war on women takes big advance

mac said:
Did I say it makes it more legal? No, I didn't. I said it makes it more likely.
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In the way that more gun ownership makes murder more likely?
 
Re: Liberals war on women takes big advance

AGENT J said:
1.) yes i do and thats meaningless to the discussion and you said "vocational training program."
PAs do lots of schooling, have degress and do residencies also way beyond what you said.
SO no your blanket statement has you wrote it was 100% factually wrong destroyed by facts as usual.

if you would like to back pedal and adjust your statement to be not factually wrong feel free but that wont change the fact the original was based off of ignorance of this topic.
Yes some nurses can get votech training and they will not be able to do this this.

2.) again meaningless see above

3.) also meaningless see above

4.) which renders the point moot and has not impact to doctors and this is way THEY support it, ill go with them over your meaningless opinion

5.) because you didnt use them you made a factually wrong blanket statement

Now before your post continues to fail and your next post is filed with deflections and lies, stop. THis conversation will go no further until you admit the facts


... PA and NPs require DEGREES
CNMs are the only one that get votech
...
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I just wanted to clarify that a CNM gets a certified degree in nursing and then schooling in midwifery besides the votech training to become a midwife.

A CNM must assist in certain number of normal delivery's ( usually 50 or more ) plus some complicated delivery's before they get the midwife part of their degree.

It is akin to the intern part of a MDs training.
 
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