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California's brown signs bill permitting non-physician abortions [W:307]

Re: Liberals war on women takes big advance

Redress said:
Well this thread backfired badly. Hard to believe conservatives would distort "news"...
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Yes, one would think distortion of the news, facts in general, was only under the purview and jurisdiction of liberals, huh?
 
Re: Liberals war on women takes big advance

Dr. Chuckles said:
you mean the very thing I mentioned in the post you quoted?

http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...women-takes-big-advance-4.html#post1062409500

but again, they do not handle all such medications, besides those with very low risk of complication and safety. So why would I get upset, when it's a point I already brought up?
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Your link was to you asking. I answered. Limitations vary from state to state and mostly cover narcotics. So qualified medical professionals who can do as you ask are still not good enough for you?
 
Re: Liberals war on women takes big advance

Dr. Chuckles said:
1.)No it doesn't. I understand you don't understand why, but your short comings really are not relevent





you're asserting the FDA is above politics, but they have a long history of being political.
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1.) facts disagree with you, but please continue the tantrum, ranting, incivility and failed insults though its hilarious reading your melt downs.
2.) nope never made that assertion one time not even close but please fell free to make up more things it further shows you got nothing. The FDA didnt change anything, this legislation is actually allowing the state to more closely follow the rules already in place. The current laws were being MORE strict then the medical field deemed necessary.


any other failed made up posts you wanna make?
 
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Re: Liberals war on women takes big advance

Gaugingcatenate said:
Yes, one would think distortion of the news, facts in general, was only under the purview and jurisdiction of liberals, huh?
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That would be a stupid thing to think.
 
Re: Liberals war on women takes big advance

Dr. Chuckles said:
an anesthesiologist goes to school and studies anesthesiology and works in conjunction with a physician.
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Ehhh...not really in conjunction. In a lot of hospitals they work independently. There is an anesthesiologist in the building but they don't work in tandem. There is also required additional training for nurse practitioners that would handle first trimester abortions.

Yes, routine treatments. From my understanding, even medicated abortions carry more risk than a flu shot
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All it takes is training as a midwife and a Nurse practitioner can deliver a baby. We're talking about a .5% rate of series complications for first trimester abortions. That's only slightly higher than complications for child birth
 
Re: Liberals war on women takes big advance

Redress said:
Your link was to you asking. I answered.
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I asked a question, while pointing out individuals like PA have limited ability to perscribe drugs. You answered my question by pointing to the limited ability of PA to perscribe drugs. Hence, it doesn't answer my question, and shows a complete lack of awareness on your end

Limitations vary from state to state and mostly cover narcotics.
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They also take into consideration safety and risk of complication

So qualified medical professionals who can do as you ask are still not good enough for you?
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Again, my question was qualified by pointing out that while non-MDs can prescribe drugs, their ability is limited. So how does simply repeating my qualification answer my question? All it does is ignore one of the basic elements of it and supply a non-answer
 
Re: Liberals war on women takes big advance

iliveonramen said:
Ehhh...not really in conjunction. In a lot of hospitals they work independently. There is an anesthesiologist in the building but they don't work in tandem. There is also required additional training for nurse practitioners that would handle first trimester abortions.
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In what circumstances would an anesthesiologist would be working without a doctor?

PS they're schooling on the subject is also very specialized and the type of situations they can operate is very limited. In such circumstances that is completely acceptable, because concern is clearly being shown for the potential risk. No one has shown an equal concern here

There is also required additional training for nurse practitioners that would handle first trimester abortions
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This is written into the bill cited into the OP, or just some general statement that might not even apply here? If it's the former I am ok with that. But after the Gosnell case, I am very skeptical of initiatives that attempt to further access to abortion, witthout explicite measures taken for safety



All it takes is training as a midwife and a Nurse practitioner can deliver a baby. We're talking about a .5% rate of series complications for first trimester abortions. That's only slightly higher than complications for child birth
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I think the midwife system is completely archaic. So citing it does little to alleviate my concerns here
 
Re: Liberals war on women takes big advance

Dr. Chuckles said:
I asked a question, while pointing out individuals like PA have limited ability to perscribe drugs. You answered my question by pointing to the limited ability of PA to perscribe drugs. Hence, it doesn't answer my question, and shows a complete lack of awareness on your end



They also take into consideration safety and risk of complication



Again, my question was qualified by pointing out that while non-MDs can prescribe drugs, their ability is limited. So how does simply repeating my qualification answer my question? All it does is ignore one of the basic elements of it and supply a non-answer
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nope your question was still 100% answered
the answer proves your concerns are not only meaningless but are 100% met.

PAs can give prescriptions, whether or not they have limits is meaningless since this prescription and or procedures falls within their limits. ALso this bill didnt change or impact that fact. The previous law was limiting it but not based on MEDICAL qualifications based.
 
Re: Liberals war on women takes big advance

AGENT J said:
PAs can give prescriptions, whether or not they have limits is meaningless since this prescription and or procedures falls within their limits. ALso this bill didnt change or impact that fact. The previous law was limiting it but not based on MEDICAL qualifications based.
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no, the limitations are very key. Hence why I cited them in my post where I asked the question
 
Re: Liberals war on women takes big advance

Dr. Chuckles said:
In what circumstances would an anesthesiologist would be working without a doctor?

PS they're schooling on the subject is also very specialized and the type of situations they can operate is very limited. In such circumstances that is completely acceptable, because concern is clearly being shown for the potential risk. No one has shown an equal concern here



This is written into the bill cited into the OP, or just some general statement that might not even apply here? If it's the former I am ok with that. But after the Gosnell case, I am very skeptical of initiatives that attempt to further access to abortion, witthout explicite measures taken for safety





I think the midwife system is completely archaic. So citing it does little to alleviate my concerns here
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not only is it written into the bill and the bill as already been quoted here TWICE and this training referred too THREE times it excised BEFORE the bill.
no concern needed unless one is concerned the whole medical system is broken regulations, training, certification wise.
 
Re: Liberals war on women takes big advance

Dr. Chuckles said:
no, the limitations are very key. Hence why I cited them in my post where I asked the question
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no, since those limitations have no impact on the meds/procedure according to the medical community. hence why they are meaningless and the question has been answered.
 
Re: California's brown signs bill permitting non-physician abortions

I took my car to a guy today to get inspected, he is certified to do car inspections but hey i know, im going to worry about if he is also qualified to rebuild BMW engines from scratch.
WHo cares he is certified to do inspections if he cant build a engine from scratch my car is in extra danger. lol
 
Re: Liberals war on women takes big advance

AGENT J said:
not only is it written into the bill and the bill as already been quoted here TWICE and this training referred too THREE times it excised BEFORE the bill.
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1)Did you read the entire bill when it was cited here? I doubt it, so let's not act like you did

2) if it is in the bill, then simply cite the text

no concern needed unless one is concerned the whole medical system is broken regulations, training, certification wise.
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are you kidding me? We had a case in PA where the entire medical safety net was hijacked in the name of ideology and patient safety was totally thrown out the window with multiple deaths simply being ignored. So concern here is more than warranted
 
Re: Liberals war on women takes big advance

Dr. Chuckles said:
In what circumstances would an anesthesiologist would be working without a doctor?

PS they're schooling on the subject is also very specialized and the type of situations they can operate is very limited. In such circumstances that is completely acceptable, because concern is clearly being shown for the potential risk. No one has shown an equal concern here
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Well they would be in the same building but the Nurse Anesthesiologist would pretty much handle the patient from start to finish. They are cheaper than paying a full MD anesthesiologist. They do have a crap ton of extra training but it's also much riskier than a first trimester abortion.

This is written into the bill cited into the OP, or just some general statement that might not even apply here? If it's the former I am ok with that. But after the Gosnell case, I am very skeptical of initiatives that attempt to further access to abortion, witthout explicite measures taken for safety
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It's written in the bill. Per the LA Times only a handful of Nurse Practitioners have received the required training in order to perform abortions currently.

I think the midwife system is completely archaic. So citing it does little to alleviate my concerns here
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They are still Nurse Practitioners. It involves certifications and tests but calling them a Midwife is just archaic terminology.

It's just my belief that Nurse practitioners are about to being doing a lot in our medical system that they didn't do before. The Baby Boomers retiring will see to that.
 
Re: California's brown signs bill permitting non-physician abortions

AGENT J said:
I took my car to a guy today to get inspected, he is certified to do car inspections but hey i know, im going to worry about if he is also qualified to rebuild BMW engines from scratch.
WHo cares he is certified to do inspections if he cant build a engine from scratch my car is in extra danger. lol
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1) your junker isn't a BMW regardless of what your scrawl on the side.

2) People need to get certified, specifically to do inspections.

3) Inspections are nowhere as complicated as doing the mechanical work on the individual components
 
Re: Liberals war on women takes big advance

Dr. Chuckles said:
1)Did you read the entire bill when it was cited here? I doubt it, so let's not act like you did

2) if it is in the bill, then simply cite the text

3.)are you kidding me? We had a case in PA where the entire medical safety net was hijacked in the name of ideology and patient safety was totally thrown out the window with multiple deaths simply being ignored. So concern here is more than warranted
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1.) there you go making stuff up again and failing and getting destroyed again, did say i read the entire bill but the parts quoted referred to the training, when i quoted it i even bloded it, colored it and underlined it.

did you even read this thread? guess not so dont act like you did

2.) sure no problem go to posts 4# and 24$ , your mistake and your welcome for the education

3.) nope, extra concern isnt needed because people BREAKING THE LAW can happen no matter what they are. Especially based on your example.
 
Re: Liberals war on women takes big advance

iliveonramen said:
Well they would be in the same building
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exactly my point. And training to be an anesthetist is very demanding and technical.

but the Nurse Anesthesiologist would pretty much handle the patient from start to finish. They are cheaper than paying a full MD anesthesiologist. They do have a crap ton of extra training but it's also much riskier than a first trimester abortion.
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Hey, if there is adequate training here I am cool with it, but no one has cited anything to show that is the case. And with recent events in PA, one thing we know without a doubt, is that pro-abortion interests that totally over run legitimate concerns for patient safety

So I am not going to simply assume adequate safety measures have taken place until I see proof of such.

Sorry, my first concern is patient safety, not pushing my views on abortion


It's written in the bill. Per the LA Times only a handful of Nurse Practitioners have received the required training in order to perform abortions currently.
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But what is the training and certification process? I did not see anything covering such, besides the statement that a certification existed. Does that mean they showed up at an office, or something more demanding?


They are still Nurse Practitioners. It involves certifications and tests but calling them a Midwife is just archaic terminology.

It's just my belief that Nurse practitioners are about to being doing a lot in our medical system that they didn't do before. The Baby Boomers retiring will see to that.
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I know a few midwives. They are not well supervised by the state.
 
Re: Liberals war on women takes big advance

AGENT J said:
1.) there you go making stuff up again and failing and getting destroyed again, did say i read the entire bill but the parts quoted referred to the training, when i quoted it i even bloded it, colored it and underlined it.[/quoted]

merely citing that they received 'training does not mean it was adequate. Example: Gosnell was subject to state oversight. But how it was leveraged meant such was meaningless
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Re: California's brown signs bill permitting non-physician abortions

Dr. Chuckles said:
1) your junker isn't a BMW regardless of what your scrawl on the side.

2) People need to get certified, specifically to do inspections.

3) Inspections are nowhere as complicated as doing the mechanical work on the individual components
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1.) nice try but it is but please further expose yourself though
2.) sure do that why i said it and people need certifications to give out certain meds and do procedures, THANK YOU for proving my point
3.) very very true thats why the education/training for medical procedures/certs is even more intense and thier are even over-site orgs that regulate this stuff which must be followes. WOW thanks for even further proving the facts and making my point

very good!
 
Re: Liberals war on women takes big advance

DrunkenAsparagus said:
I thought that as a conservative, Breitbart would love the free market being allowed to work. Greater competition means that consumers will be even more protected, because patients will have more options when it comes to their abortions. Bad practitioners will be pressured to improve or go out of business. Even then if he didn't agree with this, the same safety standards apply. And don't tell me that his line isn't just him editorializing. He didn't actually cite anyone, and it was the only opinion in the article. It's his opinion, which he never bothers to back up with evidence.

If you oppose abortions, talk about restricting abortions. Advocating for these extra "safety regulations" and then claiming that you are only looking out for women's safety is a complete load of horse****. If you oppose abortion, fine, talk about that, but the vast majority of laws currently being passed and advocated by pro-lifers goes far and away from keeping women safe and only seeks to restrict abortions.
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First of all, Breitbart didn't write the article, he died [RIP] back in 2012. The article was written by Joel Pollak. For another thing, cited in the article was this Sacramento Bee piece

Another View: Abortion access bill is misleading and unnecessary - Viewpoints - The Sacramento Bee

"What is the real motive behind AB 154?

The University of San Francisco Bixby Center for Global Reproductive Health study the authors cite as demonstrating that lower-level clinicians can safely perform surgical abortions specifically targets “low-income and minority women” for increased “access” to abortion. Since Medi-Cal pays for abortion, clinics have a financial incentive to expand abortions in poor neighborhoods. It also cites the Affordable Care Act, which will vastly expand the number of people on Medi-Cal. Abortion providers hope to tap this new market by expanding the number of clinicians and clinics that can provide surgical abortions.

Meanwhile, the abortion industry is thriving. According to 2010 tax records, nine “nonprofit” Planned Parenthood affiliates in California spent $1.8 million on lobbying alone. "

So, yes, everyone has their opinions, along with you and yours...and if you think Pro lifers are ONLY looking out for children and not looking out these mainly young and manipulated women, well...speaking of opinions, IMO, what they say about opinions certainly applies in spades to yours in this case...;)
 
Re: Liberals war on women takes big advance

AGENT J said:
3.) nope, extra concern isnt needed because people BREAKING THE LAW can happen no matter what they are. Especially based on your example.
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Hey, genius, the state ignored reports of patient death, and had such a lax system of oversight that Nail salons faced bigger legislative hurdles than abortion clinics. So yes, there is a thing such as "ineffective oversight"
 
Re: Liberals war on women takes big advance

Dr. Chuckles said:
merely citing that they received 'training does not mean it was adequate. Example: Gosnell was subject to state oversight. But how it was leveraged meant such
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weird did i say the training would be a fix all, what you are saying is true for EVERYTHING lol hence meaningless
ALso theres nothing that says Gospels "training" wasnt adequate he broke the law, his training could have been perfect but he choose to break the law which ANYBODY with ANY amount of training could. SOrry these new goals posts dont work maybe you should try a third set?

cops, doctors, judges, the president etc. could all decide to ignore thier traingin! Maybe we should shut it all down!!!!! the end is coming!!!!!
 
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Re: California's brown signs bill permitting non-physician abortions

AGENT J said:
3.) very very true thats why the education/training for medical procedures/certs is even more intense and thier are even over-site orgs that regulate this stuff which must be followes. WOW thanks for even further proving the facts and making my point

very good!
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ok, then explain how the oversight, training, and certification process are adequate here. Give me the details of the program that you are apparently privy to and educate me.

Because surely you wouldn't be making the claim that it was adequate while having a complete absence of information to base that on
 
Re: Liberals war on women takes big advance

AGENT J said:
Dr. Chuckles said:
weird did i say the training would be a fix all
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No such thing was suggested. What I pointed out was that merely having something labeled "training" and giving someone a "certification" does not mean either is actually adequate


ALso theres nothing that says Gospels "training" wasnt adequate
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I didn't cite Gosnell's training. What I did was cite the fact that gosnell was subject to state oversight, but how that oversight was structured meant it was meaningless. Hence, going "but there was oversight", or he was certified" ignores the fact that these are not magical designations that can't be thrown about when discussing oversight, and training that is *Inadequate*
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