• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

California's brown signs bill permitting non-physician abortions [W:307]

Re: Liberals war on women takes big advance

Dr. Chuckles said:
While I understand the distinction between this and surgical abortion, I'm not sure that is still a good thing. We are talking about powerful medications that carry serious consequences if they are not used right…
Click to expand...

Certainly, the unnecessary and preventable death of an innocent child is a serious consequence, and this is when the drug in question is “used right”.
 
Re: Liberals war on women takes big advance

minnie616 said:
California is now the fifth state to allow trained NMW and PAs to perform its trimester abortions.
The other states are Oregon, New Hampshire, Vermont, and Montanta.
Click to expand...


Thats pathetic that so many states limit healthcare based on non-safety, medical and science issues.

I hope this spreads to all of them fast
 
Re: Liberals war on women takes big advance

CanadaJohn said:
Funny, I seem to recall a recent murder trial in which a non-doctor gave a woman an abortion pill and all the pro-choicers were saying that unless the pill was given in the right process, along with other medications, the woman could suffer serious pain and potentially death.

I'm not a zealot on either side of the argument, but I have to say that this is one issue where the truth seldom sees the light of day.
Click to expand...

LOL so you think only doctors can read?
 
Re: Liberals war on women takes big advance

Dr. Chuckles said:
You reasoning could apply to almost any medication, but the reason we create the barrier of a doctor to such things, is because those magic little beans can carry serious health implications.
Click to expand...

Poppycock. Prescription drugs are the #1 killer in overdose deaths, a lot of good Doctors do.
 
Re: Liberals war on women takes big advance

MaggieD said:
So what? The story is true.

I cannot imagine why on earth California would enact such legislation. My bet? Done at the behest of clinics who want to hire cheaper help than a licensed physician. This isn't protecting women; this is putting them in the hands of people who are not equipped to recognize a complication when they see it happening . . . and not knowing what to do when something untoward does happen.

I am simply amazed that the AMA didn't fight this right to the wall.
Click to expand...

Legal abortions are extremely safe, safer than pregnancy statistic wise. If a "abortion' consists of handing someone a pill, how would a doctor doing it make it safer?
The idea that Planned Parenthood would endanger women to save a buck is not only a lie but disgusting. I'm surprised you don't know a woman that has been helped in some way by them. Most of us do.
 
Re: Liberals war on women takes big advance

DrunkenAsparagus said:
No one is talking about getting rid of all regulations on abortions, but there are restrictions that actually protect the patient and those that only seek to restrict abortions.
Click to expand...

Yes, I understand that and even stressed the point in my post with the counseling example.

The doctor restriction that was just repealed falls in the latter category of restrictions.
Click to expand...

Based on what? I am always skeptical of any measure that limits the doctor patient relationship in such matters, especially when there needs to be steps taken like an overview of the patients health

Abortion providers would still face the same standards and guidelines that they do now.
Click to expand...

How can that be when you just removed the requirement that the procedure is performed by a doctor?

Women could still see doctors if they wanted to. Repealing this law does not expose women to more danger, but to more choice.
Click to expand...

can you explain to me how reducing the training requirement for someone to perform the procedure does not ex[pose them to more danger? More danger seems the obvious consequence here. With the real question being if the level of increased risk is justifiable along other lines, like affordability and access
 
Re: Liberals war on women takes big advance

iguanaman said:
Legal abortions are extremely safe, safer than pregnancy statistic wise. If a "abortion' consists of handing someone a pill, how would a doctor doing it make it safer?
The idea that Planned Parenthood would endanger women to save a buck is not only a lie but disgusting. I'm surprised you don't know a woman that has been helped in some way by them. Most of us do.
Click to expand...

This doesn't simply allow for handing someone a pill. Who would care about that? This legislation authorizes nonphysicians (albeit with special training) to perform aspirations. That is NOT a pill. That's a vacuum cleaner.

I don't recall specifically faulting Planned Parenthood in any of my comments other than generally. But please don't be so naive as to believe they are unmotivated by their bottom line.
 
Re: Liberals war on women takes big advance

minnie616 said:
California is now the fifth state to allow trained NMW and PAs to perform its trimester abortions.
The other states are Oregon, New Hampshire, Vermont, and Montanta.
Click to expand...

So "Agent Jay" was wrong when he claimed this was already standard practice? Are you familiar with the licensing and training requirements in those states for the certification? My big problem here is that I can't understand how a quick review from a physician is too burdensome of a task for doctors?
 
Re: Liberals war on women takes big advance

iguanaman said:
Poppycock. Prescription drugs are the #1 killer in overdose deaths, a lot of good Doctors do.
Click to expand...

Did you even think before writing that? If prescription drugs carry such an inherent risk already, then how does it make sense to reduce the amount of training, knowledge, and technical skills of those handling them?
 
Re: Liberals war on women takes big advance

Dittohead not! said:
If the goal is to reduce the number of abortions, the best way to go about it is to make sure that women have access to, and knowledge of, effective birth control.

There is no way that abortion can ever be eliminated altogether, none.
Click to expand...

that is completely irrelevant to the point under discussion here
 
Re: Liberals war on women takes big advance

Dr. Chuckles said:
So "Agent Jay" was wrong when he claimed this was already standard practice? Are you familiar with the licensing and training requirements in those states for the certification? My big problem here is that I can't understand how a quick review from a physician is too burdensome of a task for doctors?
Click to expand...


why do you lie? is it because you got exposed?
I wasnt wrong about anything, shows how desperate you are when you resort to posting lies.
I said its already happening else where and i said its what the MEDICAL COMMUNITY already practices

LAW limits it
but the medical community already has these standards, please educate yourself so less of your posts totally fail

ill check back tomorrow to see what other lies, meltdowns and failed points you post.
You lose again to facts as usual
 
Re: Liberals war on women takes big advance

iguanaman said:
Legal abortions are extremely safe, safer than pregnancy statistic wise. If a "abortion' consists of handing someone a pill, how would a doctor doing it make it safer?
Click to expand...

because he would have more knowledge when reviewing the patients unique medical history, current medical state, and likely be more proficient at noticing any overlooked medical issue.

The same reason anyone with more training is preferable in any situation. But the key here is if the reduction is training, and the increased risk it brings, is justified


The idea that Planned Parenthood would endanger women to save a buck is not only a lie but disgusting. I'm surprised you don't know a woman that has been helped in some way by them. Most of us do.
Click to expand...

Planned parenthood serves the interests of planned parenthood, whatever you imagine those to be, not individual patients. And I have cited how the Gosnell case was fueled by a similar interest and want to deregulate the abortion field, which had consequences that were criminal and lead to the death of multiple patiants
 
Re: Liberals war on women takes big advance

AGENT J said:
why do you lie? is it because you got exposed?
I wasnt wrong about anything, shows how desperate you are when you resort to posting lies.
I said its already happening else where and i said its what the MEDICAL COMMUNITY already practices
Click to expand...

Right, you presented this as the current common practice in most states. here someone is claiming only 5 states allow it. That would make you wrong, and I fail in seeing how you being misinformed would 'expose me"
 
Re: Liberals war on women takes big advance

Dr. Chuckles said:
because he would have more knowledge when reviewing the patients unique medical history, current medical state, and likely be more proficient at noticing any overlooked medical issue.

The same reason anyone with more training is preferable in any situation. But the key here is if the reduction is training, and the increased risk it brings, is justified


Planned parenthood serves the interests of planned parenthood, whatever you imagine those to be, not individual patients. And I have cited how the Gosnell case was fueled by a similar interest and want to deregulate the abortion field, which had consequences that were criminal and lead to the death of multiple patiants
Click to expand...

I love how you bring up that butcher Gosnell. It reminds me of the kind of "people" that you want and are striving to make the only source of an abortion for women. The source that served that purpose BEFORE abortion was legalized and was a major driver in the fight for legalization. You really should be called pro-illegal abortion supporters. Because that is what you are working for, a HUGE increase in illegal abortionists and women hospitalized or killed by them. I really don't give a hoot what YOU do with your body but when your purpose is to kill and maim innocent women, you need to be called on it.
 
Re: Liberals war on women takes big advance

iguanaman said:
I love how you bring up that butcher Gosnell. It reminds me of the kind of "people" that you want and are striving to make the only source of an abortion for women.
Click to expand...

I suggest you read the grand Jury report on Gosnell with specific emphasis on the parts that go into outlining how a culture of deregulation allowed his activity which was well known by the state end medical community, to be swept under the rug

Start at page 137, under the subtitle "how did it go on for so long". It end at page 212 with the section other doctors, that outlines how emergency room practitioners did not report the multiple deaths and injuries that treated from goisnell's facility, despite being required to do so under PA law. It opens with:

<<<The callous killing of babies outside the womb, the routinely performed third-trimester abortions, the deaths of at least two patients, and the grievous health risks iinflicted on countless other women by Gosnell and his unlicensed staff are not the only shocking things that this Grand Jury investigation uncovered. What surprised the jurors even more is the official neglect that allowed these crimes and conditions to persist for years in a Philadelphia medical facility. THE STATE DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH NEGLECTED ITS DUTY TO ENSURE THE HEALTH AND SAFETY OF PATIENTS IN PENNSYLVANIA’S ABORTION CLINICS. We discovered that Pennsylvania’s Department of Health has deliberately chosen not to enforce laws that should afford patients at abortion clinics the same safeguards and assurances of quality health care as patients of other medical service providers. Even nail salons in Pennsylvania are monitored more closely for client safety. The State Legislature has charged the Department of Health (DOH) with responsibility for writing and enforcing regulations to protect health and safety in abortion clinics as well as in hospitals and other health care facilities. Yet a significant difference exists between how DOH monitors abortion clinics and how it monitors facilities where other medical procedures are performed. Indeed, the department has shown an utter disregard both for the safety of women who seek treatment at abortion clinics and for the health of fetuses after they have become viable. State health officials have also shown a disregard for the laws the department is supposed to enforce. Most appalling of all, the Department of Health’s neglect of abortion patients’ safety and of Pennsylvania laws is clearly not inadvertent: It is by design>>>

http://www.phila.gov/districtattorney/pdfs/grandjurywomensmedical.pdf


The source that served that purpose BEFORE abortion was legalized and was a major driver in the fight for legalization. You really should be called pro-illegal abortion supporters.
Click to expand...

I am very pro-abortion. I just don't think my views on abortion should supersede legitimate concerns for patient s safety and health

Because that is what you are working for, a HUGE increase in illegal abortionists and women hospitalized or killed by them. I really don't give a hoot what YOU do with your body but when your purpose is to kill and maim innocent women, you need to be called on it.
Click to expand...

Ugh, how does raising legitimate patient safety concerns (women in this instance) equate to wanting to "kill and maim innocent women"? Sounds like you're just tossing out baseless emotional appeals
 
Re: Liberals war on women takes big advance

Dr. Chuckles said:
Did you even think before writing that? If prescription drugs carry such an inherent risk already, then how does it make sense to reduce the amount of training, knowledge, and technical skills of those handling them?
Click to expand...

Because this is all a red herring. Unlike prescription pain killers, there is no problem with the safety of legal abortions and no reason to think that safety is being jeopardized in any way by allowing trained medical professionals who are not medical doctors hand out pills or perform simple abortions. All you want is to restrict a womans access to safe legal abortions and that is illegal too.
 
Re: Liberals war on women takes big advance

iguanaman said:
Because this is all a red herring. Unlike prescription pain killers, there is no problem with the safety of legal abortions and no reason to think that safety is being jeopardized in any way by allowing trained medical professionals who are not medical doctors hand out pills or perform simple abortions. All you want is to restrict a womans access to safe legal abortions and that is illegal too.
Click to expand...

No, I am perfectly fine with abortions. My concern here is patient safety. And I suspect that in any other circumstance your stereotypical response, as a notoriously knee-jerk liberal who lacks even the most basic facade of critical thinking skills, would be to rail against such deregulation.
 
Re: Liberals war on women takes big advance

Dr. Chuckles said:
I suggest you read the grand Jury report on Gosnell with specific emphasis on the parts that go into outlining how a culture of deregulation allowed his activity which was well known by the state end medical community, to be swept under the rug

Start at page 137, under the subtitle "how did it go on for so long". It end at page 212 with the section other doctors, that outlines how emergency room practitioners did not report the multiple deaths and injuries that treated from goisnell's facility, despite being required to do so under PA law. It opens with:

<<<The callous killing of babies outside the womb, the routinely performed third-trimester abortions, the deaths of at least two patients, and the grievous health risks iinflicted on countless other women by Gosnell and his unlicensed staff are not the only shocking things that this Grand Jury investigation uncovered. What surprised the jurors even more is the official neglect that allowed these crimes and conditions to persist for years in a Philadelphia medical facility. THE STATE DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH NEGLECTED ITS DUTY TO ENSURE THE HEALTH AND SAFETY OF PATIENTS IN PENNSYLVANIA’S ABORTION CLINICS. We discovered that Pennsylvania’s Department of Health has deliberately chosen not to enforce laws that should afford patients at abortion clinics the same safeguards and assurances of quality health care as patients of other medical service providers. Even nail salons in Pennsylvania are monitored more closely for client safety. The State Legislature has charged the Department of Health (DOH) with responsibility for writing and enforcing regulations to protect health and safety in abortion clinics as well as in hospitals and other health care facilities. Yet a significant difference exists between how DOH monitors abortion clinics and how it monitors facilities where other medical procedures are performed. Indeed, the department has shown an utter disregard both for the safety of women who seek treatment at abortion clinics and for the health of fetuses after they have become viable. State health officials have also shown a disregard for the laws the department is supposed to enforce. Most appalling of all, the Department of Health’s neglect of abortion patients’ safety and of Pennsylvania laws is clearly not inadvertent: It is by design>>>

http://www.phila.gov/districtattorney/pdfs/grandjurywomensmedical.pdf




I am very pro-abortion. I just don't think my views on abortion should supersede legitimate concerns for patient s safety and health



Ugh, how does raising legitimate patient safety concerns (women in this instance) equate to wanting to "kill and maim innocent women"? Sounds like you're just tossing out baseless emotional appeals
Click to expand...

You are pro-abortion but hate Planned Parenthood and think they don't care for women and are in it for the money? Planned Parenthood is a non-profit organization made up mostly of women. Is that your problem with them? Women making decisions about women instead of men making them?
 
Last edited:
Re: Liberals war on women takes big advance

iguanaman said:
You are pro-abortion but hate Planned Parenthood
Click to expand...

Where did I say I hated planned parenthood? FYI, if all you bring to this discussion is the ability to make stuff up then I suggest you exit it. Because you will only get embarrassed.

and think they don't care for women and are in it for the money?
Click to expand...

I think they are an advocay group focused on promoting their agenda, like any other advocacy group. That isn't hating them, but pointing out what they are and the limitations of it.

Planned Parenthood is a non-profit organization made up mostly of women.
Click to expand...

Ok, but that isn't mutually exclusive to the fact that they are an advocacy group, who has an agenda to advocate on certain issues

Is that your problem with them? Women making decisions about women instead of men?
Click to expand...

No, my problem is concerns for patient safety that run the very real risk of being overlooked in pursuit of opening up access to abortion, like what I outlined in the Gosnell case.

Do you not understand english?
 
Re: Liberals war on women takes big advance

iguanaman said:
LOL so you think only doctors can read?
Click to expand...

Don't ask me - ask the pro-abortion crowd who claimed that only a doctor can oversee the process. And don't you live in the land famous for suing McDonalds because the coffee was hot and the place where a dolt of a President just got reelected because he has a nice smile and can carry a tune? I wouldn't be asking too many questions about intelligence if I were you.
 
Re: Liberals war on women takes big advance

Dittohead not! said:
That's your opinion, and it is opinion only. If you believe that life begins at conception, then by all means, don't have an abortion, but don't impose your religious beliefs on the rest of society by force of law.
Click to expand...

Funny. You are the one brining religion into this topic.
 
Re: Liberals war on women takes big advance

DrunkenAsparagus said:
I'm not going to act like this is an easy decision, but I will tell you that onerous and anti-competitive regulations, condescension, and paternalism don't make this decision any easier. The fact that many of these people are young does not mean that they don't have the right to come to a decision on their own. If you want to frame your movement as protecting the rights of the unborn, that's completely reasonable, but you are not protecting women.
Click to expand...
While I appreciate your attempt to somewhat discuss this civilly, with the idea that your side does not have condescension and paternalism being rather comical, certainly untenable. Anti-competitive in having high health standards when it comes to invasive procedures, that what you mean...? Many of these young ladies are under severe duress, like standing on a cliff having a gun pointed at their heads, the ones making the big bucks saying, come on dear, just jump, jump and it will be all better, be all over...

See, there you go with your own condescension... telling our side that we in no way could even think of protecting women... that premise is simply ludicrous, unwarranted hubris, not to mention hypocritical... you see, our side intends both...whether you like it, recognize it, or not.



DrunkenAsparagus said:
I'm making zero dollars off of this. I'm also a libertarian. I don't see how adding money to a situation automatically makes an organization nefarious. I never denied that people would make money off of this. You never explained why this is bad. You're a conservative, you do like capitalism and the profit motive, right?
Click to expand...
Oh come on, libertarians can generally see how the money game is played... to ignore that as a factor, that this is more than a half trillion dollar$ every year industry and fail to see how that, at the very least, MAY, and I would suggest DOES, affect legislation and certain pocketbooks [ $1.8 million annually just in lobbying for Planned Parenthood in Cali alone... you think that is just so these oh so tenderhearted folks can yank living things from the bodies of women ?], you certainly cannot remain that naive in your positions.
 
Re: Liberals war on women takes big advance

Dittohead not! said:
If the goal is to reduce the number of abortions, the best way to go about it is to make sure that women have access to, and knowledge of, effective birth control.

There is no way that abortion can ever be eliminated altogether, none.
Click to expand...
Sorry, but just a personal pet peeve of mine with people using absolutes that, in most cases, are incorrect. I understand your point, but the absolute makes it unlikely to actually be provable truth.

So, should the sun suddenly burn out, or if man killed off all life on the planet, or more probably, if a fail safe system were devised to totally prevent unwanted pregnancy in the future, under none of those conditions could one deign to perceive that there may, indeed, be an elimination of abortion altogether?

Just saying...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom