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Priests Risk Arrest for Offering Sacraments to Catholic Troops During Shutdown[W:181]

Re: Priests Risk Arrest for Offering Sacraments to Catholic Troops During Shutdown

"Separation of Church and State" doesn't exist in the Constitution

I suggest you read it again. The phrase does not occur, though it is in the First Amendment, and is an idea that Jefferson , James Madison and John Adams believed in.

“The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries.”
― James Madison

“The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.”
― John Adams

https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/tag/separation-of-church-and-state

Maybe not George Washington, but I've given you 3 founders. Which is more than the zero that you assert.
 
Re: Priests Risk Arrest for Offering Sacraments to Catholic Troops During Shutdown

MWR funds are NAF dollars. They are both provided by MWR sales (MWR is required to be a money making venture) and supplemental command directed dollars. However...Im not really sure why that is a relevant question. The Pisgah Inn was a completely privately funded venture as are several concessions. They were forced closed by the administration by expending previously unused resources and blocking off roads. Commissaries on military installations were forced closed. And apparently a chapel on a military installation was forced closed. Golf course? nah...

Its not about the funding issue. Its about how extraordinarily petulant and childish this administration is.

Commissaries run at a loss. They are paid for by government funding. Exchanges stayed open because they are nonprofits that give what profit they make to MWR. The chapel was closed on those bases because they do not have chaplains, but contracted clergy services. Private clergy come in and use the chapel. There is a difference. And there was already a post on here that showed that this is a law that they cannot perform contracted services during a government shutdown, not even on volunteer basis. It is a legal issue.

The government shutdown is due to the childishness of Congress.
 
Re: Priests Risk Arrest for Offering Sacraments to Catholic Troops During Shutdown

Commissaries run at a loss. They are paid for by government funding. Exchanges stayed open because they are nonprofits that give what profit they make to MWR. The chapel was closed on those bases because they do not have chaplains, but contracted clergy services. Private clergy come in and use the chapel. There is a difference. And there was already a post on here that showed that this is a law that they cannot perform contracted services during a government shutdown, not even on volunteer basis. It is a legal issue.

The government shutdown is due to the childishness of Congress.
Those private clergy are paid to do so. the contract was already awarded.Was the base shut down? Of course not because there numerous functions ongoing. You can spin it however you like. The funding issue is a red herring and blocking of the chapel, like shutting down the commissaries and blocking roads to shutdown open air monuments is petty and childish.
 
Re: Priests Risk Arrest for Offering Sacraments to Catholic Troops During Shutdown

Those private clergy are paid to do so. the contract was already awarded.Was the base shut down? Of course not because there numerous functions ongoing. You can spin it however you like. The funding issue is a red herring and blocking of the chapel, like shutting down the commissaries and blocking roads to shutdown open air monuments is petty and childish.

Yes, and there is also a law saying that those contracted clergy cannot be paid to do so during a shutdown.

Hey, I was impacted by the shutdown of the commissary much more than most of the people on this board, yet I also see how it is part of what happens. It sucks, but it is little different than earlier this year (during fiscal '13) when the commissary had to shutdown every Monday vice being open every single day for us, funding. The NEX was open still though. Different funding.

I don't have to like something or even agree with it to understand why it should be done. Instead of acting like petulant children, some people need to step back and actually look at this thing using logic rather than politics.
 
Re: Priests Risk Arrest for Offering Sacraments to Catholic Troops During Shutdown

Yes, and there is also a law saying that those contracted clergy cannot be paid to do so during a shutdown.

Hey, I was impacted by the shutdown of the commissary much more than most of the people on this board, yet I also see how it is part of what happens. It sucks, but it is little different than earlier this year (during fiscal '13) when the commissary had to shutdown every Monday vice being open every single day for us, funding. The NEX was open still though. Different funding.

I don't have to like something or even agree with it to understand why it should be done. Instead of acting like petulant children, some people need to step back and actually look at this thing using logic rather than politics.
Care to take a stab at just how many contracted positions were NOT barred admittance? Would housing and facilities maintenance surprise you? How about Domestic Violence Response Coordinators, Victims Advocates, Sexual Assault Response Coordinators, ASAP providers, etc? How about NEC Help Desk contractors, what do you think...think they were barred? Different colors of money, different pockets...but all still were able to gain access. How about AD Chaplains? Think they were barred?
Oh...and I didnt even mention the MFLACS and the Family Advocacy providers. Exceptional Family member program respite care providers...etc

Petty. Petulant. Childish. Screw you, old vets...you cant walk on an open monument. Its not allowed. Wait...hey...illegal immigration group...you guys are OK. But you guys...**** you...
 
Re: Priests Risk Arrest for Offering Sacraments to Catholic Troops During Shutdown

This all depends on how you look at it. If there are laws in place that say certain things/government services that cannot operate during a government shutdown, without specific things being paid for first by the government, then he is following those laws. Plus, what would happen if someone were at one of those places and got hurt during a government shutdown? What pays for the insurance at government owned parks or is it simply reliant on the court system to deal with it?

Seriously? LOL! You have major issues. I voted for McCain in the first election and neither the second. I consider Obama unqualified for the job and disagree with plenty things he does, but I simply think it is stupid to place blame on the President for every single thing, especially something that is much more easily avoided by simply coming to an agreement on time and stop acting like children, something that is Congress's fault, not Obama's.

Are you seriously pulling out the "I voted for McCain card" card? :lol:

How much are you getting paid to type this nonsense? Why weren't the families of those military KIA paid their benefits by Obama and Hagel?

Why does Obama need to use resources to wire shut WW2 Memorials. The comical lengths his supporters go to shamelessly defend his Fascism is hilarious

Obama even shut down the Amber Alert website. This shutdown theatre is the same thing as the IRS. Targeting and harassing Americans and using the powers/tools of Government to do it. Textbook fascist thuggery.
 
Re: Priests Risk Arrest for Offering Sacraments to Catholic Troops During Shutdown

Are you seriously pulling out the "I voted for McCain card" card? :lol:

How much are you getting paid to type this nonsense? Why weren't the families of those military KIA paid their benefits by Obama and Hagel?

Why does Obama need to use resources to wire shut WW2 Memorials. The comical lengths his supporters go to shamelessly defend his Fascism is hilarious

Obama even shut down the Amber Alert website. This shutdown theatre is the same thing as the IRS. Targeting and harassing Americans and using the powers/tools of Government to do it. Textbook fascist thuggery.

They will be paid, in fact, they already passed a bill to do so. So going off on this like it was something done on purpose is plain stupidity.

Bill to Pay Military Death Benefits Heads to Obama - ABC News

The military was only funded for the pay for its living troops and month to month til the shutdown. It was not funded for another 2.9 million additional funds to pay for death benefits with the earlier bill. It sucks, but it is what it is. It all comes down to funding and what can legally be paid.
 
Re: Priests Risk Arrest for Offering Sacraments to Catholic Troops During Shutdown

I suggest you read it again. The phrase does not occur, though it is in the First Amendment, and is an idea that Jefferson , James Madison and John Adams believed in.

Again, you're ignorant of what's in The Constitution and in the first Amendment

The First Amendment says

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...

Where are the words "Separation of Church state"? Again, you lied. Par for the course.

What the FA is saying is that Congress can't make up it's own religion and force everyone to worship whatever God they create. The Government can't tell Baptists to practice their faith like Catholics. The Founders (as men) were CLEARLY influenced heavily by the words and teachings of Jesus Christ and God. You're misinterpreting the reason why Jefferson ever even wrote that letter. He was writing to Baptists and letting them know that the Government will never intervene in how they practice their faith. You're on these boards defending the guy who is doing exactly that. Obama, who for petty petulant reasons, is telling Christians they cannot practice their faith. He will even use his goons to make sure they can't worship.

Jefferson never would have approved of shutting down church services, especially to gain political points. The values, morality and principles of The Founders is completely foreign and alien to a corrupt fascist Obot.


https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/tag/separation-of-church-and-state

Maybe not George Washington, but I've given you 3 founders. Which is more than the zero that you assert.

George Washington was clearly a devout Christian and never believed that it was Government's job to stop people from worshiping in Public, even on Federal Land.
 
Re: Priests Risk Arrest for Offering Sacraments to Catholic Troops During Shutdown

They will be paid, in fact, they already passed a bill to do so. So going off on this like it was something done on purpose is plain stupidity.

Bill to Pay Military Death Benefits Heads to Obama - ABC News

The military was only funded for the pay for its living troops and month to month til the shutdown. It was not funded for another 2.9 million additional funds to pay for death benefits with the earlier bill. It sucks, but it is what it is. It all comes down to funding and what can legally be paid.

Obama could have written an executive order to fund these families' benefits in a second. His closest advisers knew about this DAYS AGO. The Pentagon is the most well funded institution in Government. You're telling me Obama can pay for armed private security to keep people out of Independence Hall, but as Commander in Chief and HIS appointed lackey running The Pentagon, they didn't have the money and couldn't have taken action to fly these families to the funerals of their fallen loved ones? I just want to know how much you're being paid to shill for Obama's thuggish nonsense.

You're about 5 talking points behind and only continue to expose yourself with endless buffoonery
 
Re: Priests Risk Arrest for Offering Sacraments to Catholic Troops During Shutdown

Care to take a stab at just how many contracted positions were NOT barred admittance? Would housing and facilities maintenance surprise you? How about Domestic Violence Response Coordinators, Victims Advocates, Sexual Assault Response Coordinators, ASAP providers, etc? How about NEC Help Desk contractors, what do you think...think they were barred? Different colors of money, different pockets...but all still were able to gain access. How about AD Chaplains? Think they were barred?
Oh...and I didnt even mention the MFLACS and the Family Advocacy providers. Exceptional Family member program respite care providers...etc

Petty. Petulant. Childish. Screw you, old vets...you cant walk on an open monument. Its not allowed. Wait...hey...illegal immigration group...you guys are OK. But you guys...**** you...

You know, its funny. I link to a source that explains the law, and yet people keep right on blaming Obama for a law from 1870. The law provides for exceptions for personell necessary for risk to health or property, and congress, not the president, has the authority to exempt others.
 
Re: Priests Risk Arrest for Offering Sacraments to Catholic Troops During Shutdown

It's simple, the government should not be funded piecemeal as the Republicans are trying to do. It is a very bad way to do business. Yes, people are being inconvenienced. But the majority of the complaints are like this one, things that are really not that big of a deal.
 
Re: Priests Risk Arrest for Offering Sacraments to Catholic Troops During Shutdown

Obama could have written an executive order to fund these families' benefits in a second. His closest advisers knew about this DAYS AGO. The Pentagon is the most well funded institution in Government. You're telling me Obama can pay for armed private security to keep people out of Independence Hall, but as Commander in Chief and HIS appointed lackey running The Pentagon, they didn't have the money and couldn't have taken action to fly these families to the funerals of their fallen loved ones? I just want to know how much you're being paid to shill for Obama's thuggish nonsense.

You're about 5 talking points behind and only continue to expose yourself with endless buffoonery

Wrong. That would have been illegal.
 
Re: Priests Risk Arrest for Offering Sacraments to Catholic Troops During Shutdown

Again, you're ignorant of what's in The Constitution and in the first Amendment

The First Amendment says



Where are the words "Separation of Church state"? Again, you lied. Par for the course.

What the FA is saying is that Congress can't make up it's own religion and force everyone to worship whatever God they create. The Government can't tell Baptists to practice their faith like Catholics. The Founders (as men) were CLEARLY influenced heavily by the words and teachings of Jesus Christ and God. You're misinterpreting the reason why Jefferson ever even wrote that letter. He was writing to Baptists and letting them know that the Government will never intervene in how they practice their faith. You're on these boards defending the guy who is doing exactly that. Obama, who for petty petulant reasons, is telling Christians they cannot practice their faith. He will even use his goons to make sure they can't worship.

Jefferson never would have approved of shutting down church services, especially to gain political points. The values, morality and principles of The Founders is completely foreign and alien to a corrupt fascist Obot.




George Washington was clearly a devout Christian and never believed that it was Government's job to stop people from worshiping in Public, even on Federal Land.

Clearly, you are not going to be removed from your talking points. The words do not appear, but the lack of Separation would in fact be a state religion. Since that is prohibited by the First Amendment, it is right there.

You said all of the Founders felt the same as you. You are wrong, and I proved it.

I don't give 2 ****s about Obama, and it's not about him. Except in your warped mind where everything is about that Communist Nazi Obama. Grow up and learn how to take your medicine when you're wrong, which your assertions have been even thought you declared them "not debatable."
 
Re: Priests Risk Arrest for Offering Sacraments to Catholic Troops During Shutdown

Wrong. That would have been illegal.

But the Founders....(at least 3 of whom disagree with Bronson about the separation of church and state)
 
Re: Priests Risk Arrest for Offering Sacraments to Catholic Troops During Shutdown

You know, its funny. I link to a source that explains the law, and yet people keep right on blaming Obama for a law from 1870. The law provides for exceptions for personell necessary for risk to health or property, and congress, not the president, has the authority to exempt others.
Actually, the president is quite familiar with and comfortable with this thing called an 'Executive Order' whereby he orders components of the executive branch (his administration) which sections to anxiously engage in and which sections to ignore. He has (by his right) demonstrated he knows about it and is not afraid to use it...when it is convenient to him. One could even very fairly argue that especially in an era where AD military personnel are committing suicide daily and dealing with deployment stresses, financial stressors, etc, that a Chaplain...a spiritual counselor, would fairly well fit in that category of essential personnel.

Exemptions to furlough were granted fairly broadly in fact. Execution of the park shutdown is also apparently arbitrary, based on cause.
 
Re: Priests Risk Arrest for Offering Sacraments to Catholic Troops During Shutdown

Obama could have written an executive order to fund these families' benefits in a second. His closest advisers knew about this DAYS AGO. The Pentagon is the most well funded institution in Government. You're telling me Obama can pay for armed private security to keep people out of Independence Hall, but as Commander in Chief and HIS appointed lackey running The Pentagon, they didn't have the money and couldn't have taken action to fly these families to the funerals of their fallen loved ones? I just want to know how much you're being paid to shill for Obama's thuggish nonsense.

You're about 5 talking points behind and only continue to expose yourself with endless buffoonery

The Pentagon is not well-funded during a shutdown. It is funded to only the essentials right now, or did you miss that part of the last few weeks? Obama cannot fund anything else. Congress funds these things, not the President.

Would it be okay if Obama decided to sign an executive order to make Congress pay for Medicaid or welfare while the shutdown is happening, claiming that families are depending on these things and it could put these families in debt, some of which are servicemembers (at least for the welfare)?
 
Re: Priests Risk Arrest for Offering Sacraments to Catholic Troops During Shutdown

The Pentagon is not well-funded during a shutdown. It is funded to only the essentials right now, or did you miss that part of the last few weeks? Obama cannot fund anything else. Congress funds these things, not the President.

Would it be okay if Obama decided to sign an executive order to make Congress pay for Medicaid or welfare while the shutdown is happening, claiming that families are depending on these things and it could put these families in debt, some of which are servicemembers (at least for the welfare)?
Contracts already previously awarded are already funded. Not sure why the funding issue comes up. Sec D Hagel DID manage to order a whole lot of folks back to work using his loopholes.
 
Re: Priests Risk Arrest for Offering Sacraments to Catholic Troops During Shutdown

Has anybody considered the possibility of letting them leave the base to go to church, or is that just not in the Right wing talking points?

You know, personal responsibility, Libertarianism and not waiting for the government to fix your problems...nope, blame Obama!
 
Re: Priests Risk Arrest for Offering Sacraments to Catholic Troops During Shutdown

Contracts already previously awarded are already funded. Not sure why the funding issue comes up. Sec D Hagel DID manage to order a whole lot of folks back to work using his loopholes.

No they are not funded past the fiscal year for that time for all priests. Not for most cases, especially if the contract is renewed every year. It all depends on the way they are funded.
 
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Re: Priests Risk Arrest for Offering Sacraments to Catholic Troops During Shutdown

Actually, the president is quite familiar with and comfortable with this thing called an 'Executive Order' whereby he orders components of the executive branch (his administration) which sections to anxiously engage in and which sections to ignore. He has (by his right) demonstrated he knows about it and is not afraid to use it...when it is convenient to him. One could even very fairly argue that especially in an era where AD military personnel are committing suicide daily and dealing with deployment stresses, financial stressors, etc, that a Chaplain...a spiritual counselor, would fairly well fit in that category of essential personnel.

Exemptions to furlough were granted fairly broadly in fact. Execution of the park shutdown is also apparently arbitrary, based on cause.

Cannot bypass it with an executive order. Cannot overrule congress with an executive order. By law, congress has the authority here, not the president.
 
Re: Priests Risk Arrest for Offering Sacraments to Catholic Troops During Shutdown

Has anybody considered the possibility of letting them leave the base to go to church, or is that just not in the Right wing talking points?

You know, personal responsibility, Libertarianism and not waiting for the government to fix your problems...nope, blame Obama!

No one is stopping any one from performing religious services for troops off base.
 
Re: Priests Risk Arrest for Offering Sacraments to Catholic Troops During Shutdown

Cannot bypass it with an executive order. Cannot overrule congress with an executive order. By law, congress has the authority here, not the president.
Contract positions are not a 'hire' position. Contracts processes are worked and awarded 3-6 months in advance and funds are already allocated and in place. Exempted furlough positions (both fed employee and contractor) and assets have been in place throughout. And the use of executive order involves Executive Branch enforcement and actions, not legislative.
 
Re: Priests Risk Arrest for Offering Sacraments to Catholic Troops During Shutdown

No one is stopping any one from performing religious services for troops off base.

Too easy...we need the government to intervene! At least according to the "libertarians" in this thread.
 
Re: Priests Risk Arrest for Offering Sacraments to Catholic Troops During Shutdown

Contract positions are not a 'hire' position. Contracts processes are worked and awarded 3-6 months in advance and funds are already allocated and in place. Exempted furlough positions (both fed employee and contractor) and assets have been in place throughout. And the use of executive order involves Executive Branch enforcement and actions, not legislative.

Not all contracted positions work the same way. It depends on the terms of the contract.

Do Catholic Priests in the Military ‘Risk Being Arrested’ if They Minister and Hold Mass During the Gov’t Shutdown? | TheBlaze.com

For instance, Quantico's contracted priests can still give services but other contracts are not like their, apparently.
 
Re: Priests Risk Arrest for Offering Sacraments to Catholic Troops During Shutdown

No they are not funded past the fiscal year for that time for all priests. Not for most cases, especially if the contract is renewed every year. It all depends on the way they are funded.
IDIQs are in place and awarded in advance. Contract NEC, FAP, Housing, Emergency response, Resource Management, Survivor Outreach, One Source, Respite Care, contract personnel were ALL in-place and remained functional. Those contracts are in fact awarded. There is absolutely no way the Chapel Contract was not already in place and its silly you would even bring it into play as it has NOTHING TO DO with access to a facility.
 
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