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Hot Mic Catches Rand Paul, Mitch McConnell Discussing Their Actual Government [W:100]

Re: Hot Mic Catches Rand Paul, Mitch McConnell Discussing Their Actual Government Shu

Fiddytree said:
Why is it killing the ACA and not ending the immediate problem of the shutdown as seems to be the case? Winning seems to be with regard to the shutdown, not the ACA. The ACA is a long-term project, not an immediate problem.
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Obviously the GOP could end the shutdown tomorrow. Put the CR to an up or down vote. No need to strategize and say "over and over" again that the GOP is for negotiations.

So you tell why the GOP isn't doing that? The answer is obvious: they will do anything to kill the ACA and Rand and Mitch think (delusionally) that they can if they can repeat the lie enough that they're willing to negotiate (even though they're not)
 
Re: Hot Mic Catches Rand Paul, Mitch McConnell Discussing Their Actual Government Shu

disneydude said:
The reality that you aren't facing (for whatever reason) if that there is nothing to negotiate. This thing would be over in 5 minutes if Boehner would put it to an up/down vote, but the teabaggers want to keep playing games. Why would Obama ever negotiate with that? Maybe if the Republicans weren't losing so badly in the public opinion forum, but this right now is a win/win for Obama. there is no reason to negotiate with the teabaggers.
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what makes you believe an up/down vote would end it?

the House passed their CR is an up/down vote already...and Democrats didn't like the outcome.


negotiation is the very mechanism that operates our government... why would Obama negotiate?.. well, because that's how impasses are solved... that is the job of every elected politician.

a politician saying he won't negotiate is the same exact thing as saying " I will not do the job i was elected to do"
the People want negotiations... they want **** solved
it's only hardcore fanatical Democrats who are supportive of these politicians not doing their job.

I can't stand either party and most of there politicians... and even i want them to sit down, be adults, and talk.
( I also want the LP to capitalize on all these grown children throwing tantrums... but that's neither here nor there)

he might just win everything he is wanting... in return for future concessions.
we won't know how it all turns out until he decides to do his job.. and Reid does his job.. and Beohner does his job.
we'll have to get through all this political posturing bull**** first, though.
 
Re: Hot Mic Catches Rand Paul, Mitch McConnell Discussing Their Actual Government Shu

head of joaquin said:
Obviously the GOP could end the shutdown tomorrow. Put the CR to an up or down vote. No need to strategize and say "over and over" again that the GOP is for negotiations.

So you tell why the GOP isn't doing that? The answer is obvious: they will do anything to kill the ACA and Rand and Mitch think (delusionally) that they can if they can repeat the lie enough that they're willing to negotiate (even though they're not)
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Democrats can't end the shutdown tomorrow too... but they are steadfast in refusing to negotiate so far.
 
Hot Mic Catches Rand Paul, Mitch McConnell Discussing Their Actual Government...

Thrilla said:
what makes you believe an up/down vote would end it?

the House passed their CR is an up/down vote already...and Democrats didn't like the outcome.


negotiation is the very mechanism that operates our government... why would Obama negotiate?.. well, because that's how impasses are solved... that is the job of every elected politician.

a politician saying he won't negotiate is the same exact thing as saying " I will not do the job i was elected to do"
the People want negotiations... they want **** solved
it's only hardcore fanatical Democrats who are supportive of these politicians not doing their job.

I can't stand either party and most of there politicians... and even i want them to sit down, be adults, and talk.
( I also want the LP to capitalize on all these grown children throwing tantrums... but that's neither here nor there)

he might just win everything he is wanting... in return for future concessions.
we won't know how it all turns out until he decides to do his job.. and Reid does his job.. and Beohner does his job.
we'll have to get through all this political posturing bull**** first, though.
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Can you give any reasonable hypothetical negotiation common ground on this? Anything?

I see a single point -the ACA. And it's yes or no.
 
Re: Hot Mic Catches Rand Paul, Mitch McConnell Discussing Their Actual Government Shu

Fiddytree said:
Why is it killing the ACA and not ending the immediate problem of the shutdown as seems to be the case? Winning seems to be with regard to the shutdown, not the ACA. The ACA is a long-term project, not an immediate problem.
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it's kinda odd really.

both parties feel that the ACA is worth ****ing everything else up

most agree it's a bad law, but somehow , it is the most important thing in the universe right now... it's vastly more important than everything else

weird ****.
 
Re: Hot Mic Catches Rand Paul, Mitch McConnell Discussing Their Actual Government...

Zyphlin said:
Where did he say that OTHER than from you making assumptions and putting words in his mouth? I imagine both sides are caring about "winning" BECAUSE they think winning will ultimately be what's best for America, not in spite of it. I think it's laughably ridiculous (shocker that I'M the one called cynical in this thread) to think that any of our politicians are sitting there going "Mwhahaha, this will be ****ty for America but it helps ME WIN! And THAT'S What matters, MWHAHAHA".
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I think there's a BUNCH of politicians sitting there going, "This will be ****ty for America but it helps my sponsors and if I want to keep that campaign cash coming in and get that plum lobbying job when I leave office that's what I'm gonna do. How can I spin this to make it palatable?"

Some more than others but all to some degree. Its how it works. And moneys voice gets louder every year.
 
Re: Hot Mic Catches Rand Paul, Mitch McConnell Discussing Their Actual Government Shu

MaggieD said:
Please to tell us what cynicism you got from that.
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You're asking for reason from a known troll.
 
Re: Hot Mic Catches Rand Paul, Mitch McConnell Discussing Their Actual Government...

Threegoofs said:
Can you give any reasonable hypothetical negotiation common ground on this? Anything?

I see a single point -the ACA. And it's yes or no.
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well, i can see a few different results... some very simple.

for example, democrats can concede to delay the individual mandate for a year.. and the GOP can concede to pass the appropriations bill and allow folks to sign up for the exchanges.

the Democrats can concede on forcing employers to pay for birth control.. and the GOP can concede on allowing employers to decide for themselves if they will fund birth control or not.

the GOP can concede on allowing funding for PP and food stamps in return for support on a balanced budget amendment.

the GOP can concede to allow the EPA to regulate greenhouse gasses in return for giving the keystone pipeline a green light and fa tracking oil drilling on federal lands.


there is tons of room for give and take....but there will be nothing good coming from outright refusing to even talk.

these two parties both believe they should get their way and the other side should get nothing... nothing good can come from that, as we all see.
 
Re: Hot Mic Catches Rand Paul, Mitch McConnell Discussing Their Actual Government Shu

head of joaquin said:
It's exactly what he's saying. His point is "say over and over again" that they are willing to negotiate (i.e. repeat the lie), but they aren't going to negotiate. It's kill the ACA or nothing. He's admitting it. His goal is to kill the ACA and he's pretending it's negotiable in public, while conspiring with Mitch and admitting it isn't, in a rather delusional fashion: "we're gonna win this, I think." (i.e., kill the ACA)
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If my "spin speak" is right, I think he means they're going to win the optics on the shutdown. That the Dems didn't test "saying they won't negotiate" and are repeating it to their detriment and all the Repubs have to do is keep claiming they're willing to "negotiate" (even though they really aren't) and the fallout for the shutdown will land on the Dems.

We all know that "negotiation" will mean completely unobtainable demands. Ridiculous cuts to vital programs, etc. That's the game today.

The Repubs play the persuasion game better. They may be right.
 
Re: Hot Mic Catches Rand Paul, Mitch McConnell Discussing Their Actual Government...

Threegoofs said:
Can you give any reasonable hypothetical negotiation common ground on this? Anything?

I see a single point -the ACA. And it's yes or no.
Click to expand...
Former Repub Congressman Steve LaTourette--outstanding with Chis Matthews--his comments are you don't negotiate over default and the word going around is if Boehner has a majority of a majority, 122 out of 243, he will not default.
The CR was an interesting discussion. LaTourette, who quit because of the Repub extremists, brought up chained CPI, Keystone and the medical equipment tax, all reasonable. The Bloomberg guy brought up a few Dem items.
IMV, Repubs already have a lower spending limit agreed to by the Senate. Beyond ACA, any House could try to kill a law or program going forward and all Americans should see the folly of that
 
Re: Hot Mic Catches Rand Paul, Mitch McConnell Discussing Their Actual Government Shu

What if...? said:
If my "spin speak" is right, I think he means they're going to win the optics on the shutdown. That the Dems didn't test "saying they won't negotiate" and are repeating it to their detriment and all the Repubs have to do is keep claiming they're willing to "negotiate" (even though they really aren't) and the fallout for the shutdown will land on the Dems.

We all know that "negotiation" will mean completely unobtainable demands. Ridiculous cuts to vital programs, etc. That's the game today.

The Repubs play the persuasion game better. They may be right.
Click to expand...

They are better at framing the issues along patently disingenuous lines, regrettable. Think death panels.

Democrats need to consult George Lakoff before they enter into these public campaigns. However, even the GOP spinmeister Luntz can't save this dog.
 
Re: Hot Mic Catches Rand Paul, Mitch McConnell Discussing Their Actual Government Shu

Thrilla said:
Democrats can't end the shutdown tomorrow too... but they are steadfast in refusing to negotiate so far.
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Nope, the only thing not negotiable is killing particular laws. Obama said from the start if they want to negogiate cuts, even entitlement cuts, it's on the table.

You're actually believing your own silly memes at this point. A bad sign. Late stage Obamaphobia.
 
Re: Hot Mic Catches Rand Paul, Mitch McConnell Discussing Their Actual Government Shu

head of joaquin said:
They are better at framing the issues along patently disingenuous lines, regrettable. Think death panels.

Democrats need to consult George Lakoff before they enter into these public campaigns. However, even the GOP spinmeister Luntz can't save this dog.
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From what I've read Lakoff didn't really want to teach people to be better at manipulating people. He was attempting to counter the Republican tactics, as opposed to teaching the Dems to be better at it.

But the Dems just want to be better at it.
 
Re: Hot Mic Catches Rand Paul, Mitch McConnell Discussing Their Actual Government Shu

What if...? said:
From what I've read Lakoff didn't really want to teach people to be better at manipulating people. He was attempting to counter the Republican tactics, as opposed to teaching the Dems to be better at it.

But the Dems just want to be better at it.
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Well, once you know how a conservative meme works (and Lakoff analyzes that rigorously), it's easy to imitate. Democrats need to focus on that art. It works.

But it is true, most of what Lakoff writes about is how not to respond to a conservative framing device. Reverse engineering one, however, is worth doing.
 
Re: Hot Mic Catches Rand Paul, Mitch McConnell Discussing Their Actual Government Shu

The vast majority of Republicans, on the condition of anonymity or they'll face a primary, agree that default is not an option and should be off the table.
 
Re: Hot Mic Catches Rand Paul, Mitch McConnell Discussing Their Actual Government Shu

What if...? said:
If my "spin speak" is right, I think he means they're going to win the optics on the shutdown. That the Dems didn't test "saying they won't negotiate" and are repeating it to their detriment and all the Repubs have to do is keep claiming they're willing to "negotiate" (even though they really aren't) and the fallout for the shutdown will land on the Dems.

We all know that "negotiation" will mean completely unobtainable demands. Ridiculous cuts to vital programs, etc. That's the game today.

The Repubs play the persuasion game better. They may be right.
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Good evening, What if...? :2wave:

I honestly can't decide who the legislators in DC seem to despise more...each other, or the American people as a group! :thumbdown:
 
Re: Hot Mic Catches Rand Paul, Mitch McConnell Discussing Their Actual Government Shu

polgara said:
Good evening, What if...? :2wave:

I honestly can't decide who the legislators in DC seem to despise more...each other, or the American people as a group! :thumbdown:
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I sometimes wonder if they even think we're worthy of disdain.
 
Re: Hot Mic Catches Rand Paul, Mitch McConnell Discussing Their Actual Government...

Zyphlin said:
Where did he say that OTHER than from you making assumptions and putting words in his mouth? I imagine both sides are caring about "winning" BECAUSE they think winning will ultimately be what's best for America, not in spite of it. I think it's laughably ridiculous (shocker that I'M the one called cynical in this thread) to think that any of our politicians are sitting there going "Mwhahaha, this will be ****ty for America but it helps ME WIN! And THAT'S What matters, MWHAHAHA".
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I very strongly disagree with you. For both sides, this is about power, and the power has corrupted them.
 
Re: Hot Mic Catches Rand Paul, Mitch McConnell Discussing Their Actual Government...

danarhea said:
I very strongly disagree with you. For both sides, this is about power, and the power has corrupted them.
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Yep agree. The sad part is seeing the partisans on both sides eat the rhetoric up like pudding. Don't know when people will realize both sides are playing the American people like a fiddle while they sit fat, happy, and sassy on the government dime.
 
Re: Hot Mic Catches Rand Paul, Mitch McConnell Discussing Their Actual Government Shu

head of joaquin said:
Well, once you know how a conservative meme works (and Lakoff analyzes that rigorously), it's easy to imitate. Democrats need to focus on that art. It works.

But it is true, most of what Lakoff writes about is how not to respond to a conservative framing device. Reverse engineering one, however, is worth doing.
Click to expand...

I strongly disagree.

I think persuasion science is making it impossible for Americans to communicate.

I think its a problem in and of itself. Not a tool to covet and advocate.
 
Re: Hot Mic Catches Rand Paul, Mitch McConnell Discussing Their Actual Government...

Zyphlin said:
Where did he say that OTHER than from you making assumptions and putting words in his mouth? I imagine both sides are caring about "winning" BECAUSE they think winning will ultimately be what's best for America, not in spite of it. I think it's laughably ridiculous (shocker that I'M the one called cynical in this thread) to think that any of our politicians are sitting there going "Mwhahaha, this will be ****ty for America but it helps ME WIN! And THAT'S What matters, MWHAHAHA".
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Totally agree dude. Totally. I honestly don't think ANY politician does that. I really don't. I just totally disagree with one sides interpretation of what's best for America. And that's all there is to it. The bad part is that the politicians themselves say things like "He's gonna put you back in chains" etc and they flame that fire.
 
Re: Hot Mic Catches Rand Paul, Mitch McConnell Discussing Their Actual Government Shu

What if...? said:
I strongly disagree.

I think persuasion science is making it impossible for Americans to communicate.

I think its a problem in and of itself. Not a tool to covet and advocate.
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We disagree. Vulcan's don't vote in our elections. You have to convince people sitting around kitchen tables. The GOP uses tried and try framing techniques and win. The Democrats must do the same. Otherwise it's bringing a knife to a gun fight.

This isn't a debating society with Earl of Queensberry rules. It's about the future of our nation and the well-being of millions of people, most of them underrepresented and underpaid. So it's OK to use techniques that work to get votes even if they don't follow Spoke's logic. Indeed, it's required.
 
Re: Hot Mic Catches Rand Paul, Mitch McConnell Discussing Their Actual Government Shu

head of joaquin said:
We disagree. Vulcan's don't vote in our elections. You have to convince people sitting around kitchen tables. The GOP uses tried and try framing techniques and win. The Democrats must do the same. Otherwise it's bringing a knife to a gun fight.

This isn't a debating society with Earl of Queensberry rules. It's about the future of our nation and the well-being of millions of people, most of them underrepresented and underpaid. So it's OK to use techniques that work to get votes even if they don't follow Spoke's logic. Indeed, it's required.
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The GOP has been winning the messaging battle for a couple decades now. Hell, they even have their very own TV Network.
 
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