Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 35

Thread: U.S. signs treaty to regulate global arms trading

  1. #21
    Global Moderator
    The Truth is out there.
    Kal'Stang's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Bonners Ferry ID USA
    Last Seen
    @
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    32,858
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: U.S. signs treaty to regulate global arms trading

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    If the "registry" is just a list of known companies/people you cannot sell to due to criminal reasons, that is HARDLY a national gun registry.

    We already have national FFL lists.

    The treaty controls the exportation of weapons to questionable parties. A registry of questionable parties is hardly cause for concern.
    Big word there...IF. It is broad enough, on purpose judging by the rest of the treaty, that it can and probably will include any bit of information that it can possibly get. Plus they have to keep track of the weapons to the best of their ability so you know those will be registered. Can't exactly make sure that those guns won't get into the "bad guys" hands without keeping track of them now can you? And there is nothing in the language of the bill that prevents collecting a registry of who the end buyer of a gun/s is. That alone makes the whole thing suspect at the very best.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

    My mind and my heart are saying I'm in my twenties. My body is pointing at my mind and heart and laughing its ass off. ~ Kal'Stang

  2. #22
    Outer space potato man

    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 08:17 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    51,785

    Re: U.S. signs treaty to regulate global arms trading

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Have you read it? Here ya go...

    PDF Final United Nations Conference on the Arms Trade Treaty New York, 18-28 March 2013

    People should also remember that like all treaties and major laws that these are just general outlines. The actual regulation or "how to" is left up to commities/agencies that are assigned to carry out the objective of those laws/treaties. Much like for example the EPA being able to make the regulation for the things under its charter. And when this treaty uses words like...

    "highest possible common international standards for regulating or improving the regulation of the international trade"
    "shall establish and maintain a national control system, including a national control list"
    "shall provide its national control list to the Secretariat, which shall make it available to other States Parties."


    You can be damn well sure that there will be some kind of registry somewhere.
    You left out pieces. Why?
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

  3. #23
    Equal Opportunity Hater
    obvious Child's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    0.0, -2.3 on the Political Compass
    Last Seen
    12-09-14 @ 11:36 PM
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    19,883

    Re: U.S. signs treaty to regulate global arms trading

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Big word there...IF. It is broad enough, on purpose judging by the rest of the treaty, that it can and probably will include any bit of information that it can possibly get.
    No more so than what is already collected on FFLs.

    Plus they have to keep track of the weapons to the best of their ability so you know those will be registered.
    Which they can do on a simple packing slip. And is already entered into the accounting departments at both ends on sales and inventory. How is the different then what happens already? Those who will not do this are those who are not going to abide to the treaty anyways.

    Can't exactly make sure that those guns won't get into the "bad guys" hands without keeping track of them now can you?
    That become a domestic issue then which is outside of the scope of the treaty. The treaty only covers imports and exports. A FFL selling to criminals is a domestic problem, but if words gets back to the supplier that their FFL is playing fast and loose, they would be required to stop selling. However, tracking that weapon becomes a domestic issue and we already cover that. It would be a simple act to simply email the foreign supplier that this FFL has been revoked. I'm pretty sure the Federal government will revoke your FFL if you actively sell firearms to known criminals who you know will commit crimes with them. In a sense, this treaty shouldn't impact us at all as we already have a system to prevent abuse. It will however, bring the rest of the world up to our standards. So what you are in arguing even if you do not know it is that you are saying our standards are lower than the rest of the world's which in some cases is true and in some cases is most definitely not.

    And there is nothing in the language of the bill that prevents collecting a registry of who the end buyer of a gun/s is. That alone makes the whole thing suspect at the very best.
    But there is also nothing in the language of the bill to require just that either. I don't see why we'd need one when we have the FFL system and the fact that most of the guns in America used in crimes are either stolen or illegally purchased in the first place.

    This treaty isn't going to impact America, but it will put a huge crimp in countries where leaders tend to abuse their power via violence. Aka, selling firearms to Mugabe who then gives him to his thugs to kill MDC leaders.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

  4. #24
    versus the world
    Surtr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    The greatest planet in the world.
    Last Seen
    06-10-14 @ 03:54 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    7,017

    Re: U.S. signs treaty to regulate global arms trading

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    And where does it scare you?
    Where did I say that it does?
    I love the NSA. It's like having a secret fan-base you will never see, but they're there, watching everything you write and it makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside knowing that I may be some person's only form of unconstitutional entertainment one night.

  5. #25
    Banned
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Chicago Illinois
    Last Seen
    10-14-15 @ 09:28 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Private
    Posts
    56,981

    Re: U.S. signs treaty to regulate global arms trading

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    None. Precisely none. I had this discussion on some right wing new sources that had comments and none of them read it at all. None of them could even cite a single piece of legislation form it that did what they claimed it did.
    Well, except that in July of 2012 the ILA had put out this. Basic Wiki even had it.

    Anti-gun treaty proponents continue to mislead the public, claiming the treaty would have no impact on American gun owners. That's a bald-faced lie. For example, the most recent draft treaty includes export/import controls that would require officials in an importing country to collect information on the 'end user' of a firearm, keep the information for 20 years, and provide the information to the country from which the gun was exported. In other words, if you bought a Beretta shotgun, you would be an 'end user' and the U.S. government would have to keep a record of you and notify the Italian government about your purchase. That is gun registration. If the U.S. refuses to implement this data collection on law-abiding American gun owners, other nations might be required to ban the export of firearms to the U.S.....snip~

    Course there are those measures for the Treaty.

    It must be workable and enforceable. It must:

    provide guidelines for the treaty's full, clear implementation;
    ensure transparency—including full annual reports of national arms transfers;
    have an effective mechanism to monitor compliance;
    ensure accountability—with provisions for adjudication, dispute settlement and sanctions;
    include a comprehensive framework for international cooperation and assistance.

    Then the NGO's decided to add a little more into the mix.

    NGOs are also advocating that the Arms Trade Treaty must reinforce existing responsibilities to assist survivors of armed violence, as well as identify new avenues to address suffering and trauma.....snip~

    Arms Trade Treaty - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

  6. #26
    Global Moderator
    The Truth is out there.
    Kal'Stang's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Bonners Ferry ID USA
    Last Seen
    @
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    32,858
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: U.S. signs treaty to regulate global arms trading

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    You left out pieces. Why?
    Left out most of the treaty.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

    My mind and my heart are saying I'm in my twenties. My body is pointing at my mind and heart and laughing its ass off. ~ Kal'Stang

  7. #27
    Sage
    reinoe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Out West
    Last Seen
    Today @ 12:41 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    16,097
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: U.S. signs treaty to regulate global arms trading

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    The US already meets the requirements for this treaty. It's basically other nations agreeing to our standard practices.
    The U.S. sells arms to terrorist sponsoring nations. If that's the example the world is going to be following then I have no doubt that Syria, Saudi Arabia, Iran, North Korea, and Russia have already signed it!

  8. #28
    Global Moderator
    The Truth is out there.
    Kal'Stang's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Bonners Ferry ID USA
    Last Seen
    @
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    32,858
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: U.S. signs treaty to regulate global arms trading

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    No more so than what is already collected on FFLs.
    Which has alot of personal info.

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    Which they can do on a simple packing slip. And is already entered into the accounting departments at both ends on sales and inventory. How is the different then what happens already? Those who will not do this are those who are not going to abide to the treaty anyways.
    No actually they can't do it with just a packing slip. Remember, their stated end goal is to make sure that guns do not get into the hands of terrorists and those that would harm people. In order to do that they must be able to track each and every single gun. This treaty does not start at the border and end at another border. It has to track those guns to the end buyer.

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    That become a domestic issue then which is outside of the scope of the treaty. The treaty only covers imports and exports. A FFL selling to criminals is a domestic problem, but if words gets back to the supplier that their FFL is playing fast and loose, they would be required to stop selling. However, tracking that weapon becomes a domestic issue and we already cover that. It would be a simple act to simply email the foreign supplier that this FFL has been revoked. I'm pretty sure the Federal government will revoke your FFL if you actively sell firearms to known criminals who you know will commit crimes with them. In a sense, this treaty shouldn't impact us at all as we already have a system to prevent abuse. It will however, bring the rest of the world up to our standards. So what you are in arguing even if you do not know it is that you are saying our standards are lower than the rest of the world's which in some cases is true and in some cases is most definitely not.
    Yes it only covers imports and exports. That only means that domestic guns will not be targeted. But again, the stated goal is to make sure those guns do not get into terrorists and people that would harm other people hands. And yes, once inside a border it is a domestic issue, they let that countries government track it to the end buyer then by treaty the government collects that info and lets every other country know about it. Not to mention that countries government gets to keep that info.

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    But there is also nothing in the language of the bill to require just that either. I don't see why we'd need one when we have the FFL system and the fact that most of the guns in America used in crimes are either stolen or illegally purchased in the first place.
    Actually there is. And I already quoted it in post 13.

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    This treaty isn't going to impact America, but it will put a huge crimp in countries where leaders tend to abuse their power via violence. Aka, selling firearms to Mugabe who then gives him to his thugs to kill MDC leaders.
    Yes it will impact America. Even IF (big IF) you are right in that no registry will happen (knowing power hungry politicians i doubt this) it will effect it via price hikes and companies no longer shipping out guns due to the extra hassle.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

    My mind and my heart are saying I'm in my twenties. My body is pointing at my mind and heart and laughing its ass off. ~ Kal'Stang

  9. #29
    Canadian Conservative
    CanadaJohn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Toronto, Ontario, Canada
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 03:09 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    27,189

    Re: U.S. signs treaty to regulate global arms trading

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    I wonder how many right-wingers having a kneejerk reaction to this treaty have actually read the damned thing.
    I wonder how many left-wingers having a kneejerk reation to this treaty actually think it will stop the illegal sale and use of arms by those determined to do so? Probably the same left-wingers who believe that drug laws should be eliminated because too many people are breaking the drug laws and filling up the nation's jails.
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

  10. #30
    Equal Opportunity Hater
    obvious Child's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    0.0, -2.3 on the Political Compass
    Last Seen
    12-09-14 @ 11:36 PM
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    19,883

    Re: U.S. signs treaty to regulate global arms trading

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Which has alot of personal info.
    If you're okay with the FFL, this doesn't change much.

    No actually they can't do it with just a packing slip. Remember, their stated end goal is to make sure that guns do not get into the hands of terrorists and those that would harm people. In order to do that they must be able to track each and every single gun. This treaty does not start at the border and end at another border. It has to track those guns to the end buyer.
    You're projecting here, rather than looking at how it will likely work. Stopping sales to dealers who are shady does the same thing without tracking individual firearms. And yes, they can do it via packing slip. Exporter sales X guns to FFL firearm shop. That shop then enters the data of the weapons into its accounting system. When sales are made, that weapons is tied to the original dealer who has recorded the serials. If that weapon is used in a crime, it gets traced back to the dealer. If that dealer is found to have a large number of sales to criminals, they get shut down, especially if they knew the weapons would get used. No FFL, no imports. The system works. Honestly, this is way easier and way cheaper to do and achieves the same goal. We already register weapons as it is in America. I don't see why we need a national registry if we can simply use existing registrations as well as tying them back to original place of purchase. I think you're reaching for the worst rather than reaching for what is likely to happen. Could we get a national registry tracking every firearm? Yes. That's possible. Would it be easier to just do what we do now and achieve the same goals? Yes.

    Yes it only covers imports and exports. That only means that domestic guns will not be targeted. But again, the stated goal is to make sure those guns do not get into terrorists and people that would harm other people hands. And yes, once inside a border it is a domestic issue, they let that countries government track it to the end buyer then by treaty the government collects that info and lets every other country know about it. Not to mention that countries government gets to keep that info.
    Where did you get the part about sharing such information with other countries?

    Actually there is. And I already quoted it in post 13.
    That's a control list. Not a registry. Again, a control list of shady dealers you can't sell to =/= national firearms registry.

    Yes it will impact America. Even IF (big IF) you are right in that no registry will happen (knowing power hungry politicians i doubt this) it will effect it via price hikes and companies no longer shipping out guns due to the extra hassle.
    What do you mean extra hassle? Pull up a list of denied buyers, if they're not on it, you're good to export.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •