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Dutch king declares end of the welfare state

Dr. Chuckles said:
Yeah, the amount of illegals passing through greece is pretty insane.
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If they want to defend their borders they should do what Austria did and make border control a military issue.
 
Carjosse said:
It would be great if their borders weren't controlled by the EU. The Schengen Area is a great idea but you need to have a lot of enforcement to keep illegals out and end the Schnegn to less wealthy parts of the EU. It is how Norway can keep it's welfare state.
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The EU does not control any borders. The Schengen agreement is just that, an agreement between sovereign states who remain responsible for their own borders. Of course, if you have 13.6 thousand miles of coastline, as Greece has, patrolling that may be beyond the ability of a debt-ravaged coast guard.
 
Andalublue said:
The EU does not control any borders. The Schengen agreement is just that, an agreement between sovereign states who remain responsible for their own borders. Of course, if you have 13.6 thousand miles of coastline, as Greece has, patrolling that may be beyond the ability of a debt-ravaged coast guard.
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Did no one notice the gaping hole in that agreement? The EU has things for example if you are a citizen of a country you can go to any other EU country. The same thing seems to apply with work permits or other such things. Can there not a be a military force patrolling that border? It doesn't have to be Greek maybe the military of another EU country(or countries) since it is in their best interests.
 
Carjosse said:
Did no one notice the gaping hole in that agreement? The EU has things for example if you are a citizen of a country you can go to any other EU country. The same thing seems to apply with work permits or other such things. Can there not a be a military force patrolling that border? It doesn't have to be Greek maybe the military of another EU country(or countries) since it is in their best interests.
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That post makes no sense at all. What are you trying to say? Do you believe the EU controls Greece's borders, or don't you? Schengen makes travel between signatory states easier, although to fly between those states you still need identification. It is also not just an EU convention. Norway, iceland and Switzerland are all signatories. The UK and Ireland are not. It has no jurisdiction, nor does it deal with the issuing of work permits.
 
apdst said:
4,000+ Dutch offed themselves through euthanasia last year. Your workforce is dwindling. Between that and your welfare state, that is high on naracotics, I think you'll be in worse shape than Greece is just a few years.
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Yes, a new batch of vile very conservative lies.

Offed themselves? These were dying people who chose to die with dignity. That is not offing yourself. That in the US babies and people are taken off ventilator against the will of the parent/family is much worse than euthanasia IMHO.

And of course our workforce is going down, the work force is going down just about everywhere due to the baby boomers of just after the second world war who are going into retirement.

And high on narcotics? Even looked at the drugs use in my country compared to that of the US? Having more liberal drugs laws and not stupid insane mandatory drugs sentencing does not mean that we have high drugs use.
 
Peter King said:
That in the US babies and people are taken off ventilator against the will of the parent/family is much worse than euthanasia IMHO.
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Huh?

12345
 
Carjosse said:
Did no one notice the gaping hole in that agreement? The EU has things for example if you are a citizen of a country you can go to any other EU country. The same thing seems to apply with work permits or other such things. Can there not a be a military force patrolling that border? It doesn't have to be Greek maybe the military of another EU country(or countries) since it is in their best interests.
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Why would it be in the best interests of another country? If they can ship off their poor to Greece, how is that bad for any other EU country? In fact, it improves their economy, that's exactly why Mexico tries to push their poor to illegally immigrate to the U.S.
 
Cephus said:
Why would it be in the best interests of another country? If they can ship off their poor to Greece, how is that bad for any other EU country? In fact, it improves their economy, that's exactly why Mexico tries to push their poor to illegally immigrate to the U.S.
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Because movement between EU member states is relatively easy. And Greece is currently serving as an entry point for Illegal immigrants to the rest of the EU, especially since Spain and Italy have beefed up security along their Mediterranean costs.

I think current estimates are that from 75-90% of all illegal immigrants in Europe now pass through Greece
 
Dr. Chuckles said:
I think current estimates are that from 75-90% of all illegal immigrants in Europe now pass through Greece
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Source? I don't think you'll be able to provide stats that back that claim.

There are still thousands of Maghrebi and Sub-Saharan immigrants making the heart-breaking voyage across the Alborán. I was down on the coast last week on the same day a raft of 60 was brought to shore. How would beefed up coastal patrols stop this? You think the Spanish and Italian coastguards are pushing them out into international waters to drown? Or go back to Morocco? No. Those boats and the thousands of Africans are brought ashore, processed through reception centres and then those that come from politically troubled countries (Libya, Mali, Mauritania, Sudan, Chad, Liberia etc.) are released into Spain and Italy. Even if the will to send them back existed, the means would be incapable of dealing with the volume. This is the reality of Europe's immigration problem and we don't even have the ability to build that border wall, even if we had the will. Which we don't. Greece is vulnerable, because of its thousands of miles of coastline, but it's nowhere near taking 75% of migrants.
 
Dr. Chuckles said:
Because movement between EU member states is relatively easy. And Greece is currently serving as an entry point for Illegal immigrants to the rest of the EU, especially since Spain and Italy have beefed up security along their Mediterranean costs.

I think current estimates are that from 75-90% of all illegal immigrants in Europe now pass through Greece
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But putting the blockage on the other side of Greece and keeping all the illegals there would make more sense than trying to protect Greece. Once the illegals have found their home, if it's difficult to move on, they'll stay there. Granted, Greece is probably about as bankrupt as the countries these people came from in the first place.
 
Andalublue said:
Source? I don't think you'll be able to provide stats that back that claim.
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<<<Immigrants from Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iran, Syria and Africa have been crossing over the Evros by the thousands. Greece is the gateway to the West, and roughly nine out of every 10 people illegally entering Europe follow this route. On peak days, the figure can reach 500 people.>>>

Thousands of Illegal Immigrants Enter Europe Through Greece - SPIEGEL ONLINE

the 75% figure either came from an economist article or the Guardian


You think the Spanish and Italian coastguards are pushing them out into international waters to drown? Or go back to Morocco? No. Those boats and the thousands of Africans are brought ashore, processed through reception centres and then those that come from politically troubled countries (Libya, Mali, Mauritania, Sudan, Chad, Liberia etc.) are released into Spain and Italy.
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<<<The trend is in sharp contrast to other Mediterranean countries such as Spain and Italy. Spain detained 9,717 illegal immigrants between January and September, less than half those stopped in the same period last year, according to the International Organization for Migration. Italy detained 10,062, down 30 percent. Both countries attribute the declines to stricter border checks and cooperation with migrants' countries of origin like Senegal and Morocco.>>>

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/04/world/europe/04iht-migrate.4.7756077.html?_r=0
 
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Dr. Chuckles said:
Huh?

12345
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Sorry, but my grandfather died of euthanasia and it was a peaceful end to a horrible death struggle and for it to be called "offing" themselves in a discussion about my countries finances got me riled up and I responded in the same manner as apdst.

But it is true though, in Texas hospitals can remove people from ventilators/life support against the wishes of the family.
 
Peter King said:
But it is true though, in Texas hospitals can remove people from ventilators/life support against the wishes of the family.
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In what type of context are you talking about, and can you offer a citation?
 
Dr. Chuckles said:
In what type of context are you talking about, and can you offer a citation?
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Texas law allows hospitals to discontinue life-sustaining care, even if a patient's family members disagree. A doctor's recommendation must be approved by a hospital's ethics committee, and the family must be given 10 days from written notice of the decision to try and locate another facility for the patient.
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Baby dies after hospital removes breathing tube - Houston Chronicle

The Texas Advance Directives Act (1999), also known as the Texas Futile Care Law, describes certain provisions that are now Chapter 166 of the Texas Health & Safety Code. Controversy over these provisions mainly centers on Section 166.046, Subsection (e),1 which allows a health care facility to discontinue life-sustaining treatment ten days after giving written notice if the continuation of life-sustaining treatment is considered futile care by the treating medical team.
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Advance Directives Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I read about this law during the Schiavo case discussion. It drew a lot of discussion after president Bush came back to the White House to sign laws into life purely meant to stop the Schaivo case going through.

People thought it was hypocritical because this futile care law was signed into law by governor Bush, a law which allowed an ethics committee to decide against the wish of patients or their decision makers/parent/family, to forcibly remove them from life support.
 
Peter King said:
The Texas Advance Directives Act (1999), also known as the Texas Futile Care Law, describes certain provisions that are now Chapter 166 of the Texas Health & Safety Code. Controversy over these provisions mainly centers on Section 166.046, Subsection (e),1 which allows a health care facility to discontinue life-sustaining treatment ten days after giving written notice ***if the continuation of life-sustaining treatment is considered futile care by the treating medical team***.
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What is the issue there? I see no reason to keep someone on life support for 40 years when there is no chance at recovery. Those are resources that could be much better applied to individuals who have a chance of living a full and happy life
 
Dr. Chuckles said:
What is the issue there? I see no reason to keep someone on life support for 40 years when there is no chance at recovery. Those are resources that could be much better applied to individuals who have a chance of living a full and happy life
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I in theory agree with you, but that must be done by rule of law (a judge) and not by an ethics board who than forces the issue by removing it against the will of the patient itself or the parents/family.
 
Peter King said:
I in theory agree with you, but that must be done by rule of law (a judge) and not by an ethics board who than forces the issue by removing it against the will of the patient itself or the parents/family.
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the 'rule of law" is simply being placed with people trained in medicine here.

PS I imagine you're not going to find an instance of removal where the patient can actually object
 
Dr. Chuckles said:
the 'rule of law" is simply being placed with people trained in medicine here.

PS I imagine you're not going to find an instance of removal where the patient can actually object
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During my research I thought I came across a patient with a living will who said they did not want to be removed from life support.

And the ethics board may be trained in medicine, but they are also working for the hospital which wants to end the treatment.
 
Peter King said:
During my research I thought I came across a patient with a living will who said they did not want to be removed from life support.
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But that isn't an instance where a patient can object (showing consciousness). It's an instance where someone set down their wishes in writing, and that were referenced at a later date.



And the ethics board may be trained in medicine, but they are also working for the hospital which wants to end the treatment.
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But their decision can be directly appealed to a judge and seems only applicable in cases where, even with life support, they are only likely to survive for a relatively short time period (the legislation lists 6 months)
 
jonny5 said:
Well, the topic isnt monarchys in any case. The point was his family does owe their position to the taxpayer. Once he gets a real job where govt doesnt force people to pay him, then he can tell everyone else to likewise take care of themselves. Even if his sentiment is right. He has to set an example.
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Do you think the same about the politicians in this country as well?

Taxpayers pay the President. Should he go out and get a real job so he can tell people what to do?
 
Funny they and you did not mention this part of the Welfare state.............

"It was not immediately clear if the 100 million euros spent by the government on maintaining the Royal House, with its castles and parades, would be included in the austerity cuts"

and speaking of welfare for the millionaires and billionaires...............

Tracking the $700 Billion Bailout - The New York Times
 
Maybe there is a little glimmer of hope within Europe.
 
Mason66 said:
Do you think the same about the politicians in this country as well?

Taxpayers pay the President. Should he go out and get a real job so he can tell people what to do?
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Politicians aren't given the job at birth. They have to compete for it and are chosen by the people to provide a specific administrative service, and they have a specific term after which it ends.
 
Rainman05 said:
Dutch king declares end of the welfare state | euronews, world news




So the dutch will start dropping some of the social nets that are there for people. I think they realized the impossiiblity of their situation and the continuation of social security and other such programs for the future. We need a new paradigm to activate in for such things and I think the dutch are thinking towards the future.
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oops you left out the best part of that story......

It was not immediately clear if the 100 million euros spent by the government on maintaining the Royal House, with its castles and parades, would be included in the austerity cuts.

Recent polls show confidence in the government at a record low and that most Dutch people believe the cabinet’s austerity policies are at least partially to blame.
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Before you shout "Hail to the King" you better listen for the people who are saying "off with his head".
 
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