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Thread: Dutch king declares end of the welfare state

  1. #21
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    Re: Dutch king declares end of the welfare state

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter King View Post
    Wrong, we are good at economic stability but unlike other countries (due to our size) we are very very dependable on foreign trade. We have a small internal market known for people who save before they spend and not spend before they save. Our people do not go wild on credit and spend spend spend. We are especially dependent on Germany and when the German industry gets up to full power the Netherlands will follow suit (just a few months to a year or so lagging behind).

    We however have been hit by prospecting on housing. Most people kept selling their houses and upgrading/uptrading to bigger and better houses with bigger and bigger housing loans. The growth in that was unsustainable. Then there was a problem with the percentage of interest. Dutch banks were hit by the housing bubble bursting in the US and a few had to ask help from our government to keep them healthy and profitable/to keep them alive. One bank had gotten in to such problems that the Dutch and Belgian governments had to nationalize the bank entirely.

    With only one big housing loan provider left standing (because they do not trade much outside of the Netherlands/subprime investments) they were the only bank allowed to set the height of the interest on bank loans. Because the other banks had not been able to pay back every penny they loaned from out government, the European Union had forbidden them to lower the interest level because the EU was of the opinion that this would be state support for the banks in a battle for the housing loan market with the only bank that had not asked for government aid.

    The housing bubble had to come to an end because it was becoming unsustainable. Especially because due to tax deduction the state pays part of the monthly interest payment that house owners have to pay to their bank, making it a lot more affordable to buy expensive houses.



    No, that is BS because they were talking about illegal immigration, not legal immigration.
    Dutch fear rise in immigration as EU law changes - FT.com

    Government gets tougher with illegal immigrants | Radio Netherlands Worldwide

    This will answer the whole problem with immigration. No point in writing a wall of text when they are already written for me.

    Every country that has suffered due to the economic crisis has the housing bubble to thank for an increase in that. Not just the USA had a housing bubble, most European countries did too. So that's nothing special.

    On the matter of the recession: Dutch economy struggling to pull out of recession - central bank | Reuters
    The central bank states that the chance for growth next year is very dependent on the austerity measures to actually work, or else, deeper recession.

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    Re: Dutch king declares end of the welfare state

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainman05 View Post
    Dutch king declares end of the welfare state | euronews, world news




    So the dutch will start dropping some of the social nets that are there for people. I think they realized the impossiiblity of their situation and the continuation of social security and other such programs for the future. We need a new paradigm to activate in for such things and I think the dutch are thinking towards the future.
    As others have noted, while its a great idea, the King has no power to make it happen, and he lacks credibility given his family has been effectively living off the people. So its really meaningless.

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    Re: Dutch king declares end of the welfare state

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    It used to be that family helped family. And those freeloaders? They were left to fend for themselves. We've lost family helping family.

    We hide our parents assets so that "the state" can take care of them free in old people's homes . . . use unemployment compensation as a paid vacation . . . use food stamps to gamble with . . . give up our kids so that family members can be paid by their state's foster family system . . . the list of abuses in our good-intentioned helping hand programs has become a way of life. The political right is sick of it. The political left thinks we're baby killers.

    Eventually, we'll get it. I hope it's soon enough.
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    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: Dutch king declares end of the welfare state

    Quote Originally Posted by jonny5 View Post
    As others have noted, while its a great idea, the King has no power to make it happen, and he lacks credibility given his family has been effectively living off the people. So its really meaningless.
    While I am a republican (not political republican, i mean one that advocates for a republic), there are monarchies in the world that are really, really good and whose benefits for having them far outweight the benefit of having an elected president. And I think one would argue that the economic benefits the royal dutch family bring may be worth the economic expenses.

    http://edition.cnn.com/2013/04/30/op...ons/index.html

    The dutch monarchy is one of them.
    And while the king hasn't got the powers that a head of state would have in a republic, he doesn't need them. The parliament approves of his message. They are in sync. It's not a contentious relationship.... well, the king just barely became king so there may be problems down the road, but so far, all is orange

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    Re: Dutch king declares end of the welfare state

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainman05 View Post
    While I am a republican (not political republican, i mean one that advocates for a republic), there are monarchies in the world that are really, really good and whose benefits for having them far outweight the benefit of having an elected president. And I think one would argue that the economic benefits the royal dutch family bring may be worth the economic expenses.

    Opinion: Dutch monarchs' lessons for world's royals - CNN.com

    The dutch monarchy is one of them.
    And while the king hasn't got the powers that a head of state would have in a republic, he doesn't need them. The parliament approves of his message. They are in sync. It's not a contentious relationship.... well, the king just barely became king so there may be problems down the road, but so far, all is orange
    Well thats obvisouly up to the Dutch. I was only speaking as to his credibility on telling others to get off welfare. Being an american I likewise abhor nobility, no matter what benefit they bring. Individuals should not be worshipped and given special political status simply because they were born.

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    Re: Dutch king declares end of the welfare state

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    It used to be that family helped family. And those freeloaders? They were left to fend for themselves. We've lost family helping family.

    We hide our parents assets so that "the state" can take care of them free in old people's homes . . . use unemployment compensation as a paid vacation . . . use food stamps to gamble with . . . give up our kids so that family members can be paid by their state's foster family system . . . the list of abuses in our good-intentioned helping hand programs has become a way of life. The political right is sick of it. The political left thinks we're baby killers.

    Eventually, we'll get it. I hope it's soon enough.
    The American family is now a subject of ridicule. See post #23 for confirmation. My family still exists and functions in the manner you describe, and so do many, many others. The effort to displace the family with government continues along with the revisionism required to deny that anything better ever existed.

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    Re: Dutch king declares end of the welfare state

    Monarchs who don't know their place need slapping down. The King of the Netherlands needs to be reminded that he's the ceremonial Head of State and has no role to play in the political direction of the country. The undermining of the separation of powers is a dangerous game to play. If he continues, the Dutch would be well advised to kick them out and become a republic. That's something that could be on the cards here if the monarchy continues to take the piss out of the Spanish people who are suffering while they continue to embezzle charity funds and take million-Euro holidays shooting endangered species.
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    Re: Dutch king declares end of the welfare state

    Quote Originally Posted by jonny5 View Post
    Well thats obvisouly up to the Dutch. I was only speaking as to his credibility on telling others to get off welfare. Being an american I likewise abhor nobility, no matter what benefit they bring. Individuals should not be worshipped and given special political status simply because they were born.
    Well, technically, being on the state pay isn't welfare. I mean, he is producing a service, he is doing a job, for the money he gets. It's not like he just has a wank all day and gets a paycheck for it. There is work to be done.

    And I don't abhor nobility as a rule. i just think that they lost the right to rule the moment we, the people, decided we want to elect our own leaders.

    And the monarchies that exist now in Europe exist because over the course of history, when push came to shove, they always sided with the people. When it came for them to grant powers and form parliament, they did so. When it came to surrender more powers to the people, they did so. They oversaw discipline in state institutions and did a commendable job acting as heads of state. The fought for their peoples' spirits and their country in times of war and troubles.

    So they aren't there as an absurdity of nature. An absurdity of history.They are there because they earned the right to be there, as a monarchy line. Whether each monarch has earned his "wings" as it were, that's a different story. And considering the relatively large number of constitutional monarchies that exist in Europe: the netherlands, belgium, the UK, Andorra (the elected president of France holds office of "king" in Andorra), Spain, Denmark, Norway, Sweden and Lichtenstein, all constitutional, all having generations upon generations to discuss... well, you get the picture.

    If you want to rail against monarchies, I'll join in railing against the remaining absolute monarchies in the world: Saudi arabia, Brunei, Swaziland and Oman.

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    Re: Dutch king declares end of the welfare state

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainman05 View Post
    Well, technically, being on the state pay isn't welfare. I mean, he is producing a service, he is doing a job, for the money he gets. It's not like he just has a wank all day and gets a paycheck for it. There is work to be done.

    And I don't abhor nobility as a rule. i just think that they lost the right to rule the moment we, the people, decided we want to elect our own leaders.

    And the monarchies that exist now in Europe exist because over the course of history, when push came to shove, they always sided with the people. When it came for them to grant powers and form parliament, they did so. When it came to surrender more powers to the people, they did so. They oversaw discipline in state institutions and did a commendable job acting as heads of state. The fought for their peoples' spirits and their country in times of war and troubles.

    So they aren't there as an absurdity of nature. An absurdity of history.They are there because they earned the right to be there, as a monarchy line. Whether each monarch has earned his "wings" as it were, that's a different story. And considering the relatively large number of constitutional monarchies that exist in Europe: the netherlands, belgium, the UK, Andorra (the elected president of France holds office of "king" in Andorra), Spain, Denmark, Norway, Sweden and Lichtenstein, all constitutional, all having generations upon generations to discuss... well, you get the picture.

    If you want to rail against monarchies, I'll join in railing against the remaining absolute monarchies in the world: Saudi arabia, Brunei, Swaziland and Oman.
    Well, the topic isnt monarchys in any case. The point was his family does owe their position to the taxpayer. Once he gets a real job where govt doesnt force people to pay him, then he can tell everyone else to likewise take care of themselves. Even if his sentiment is right. He has to set an example.

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    Re: Dutch king declares end of the welfare state

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainman05 View Post
    Dutch fear rise in immigration as EU law changes - FT.com

    Government gets tougher with illegal immigrants | Radio Netherlands Worldwide

    This will answer the whole problem with immigration. No point in writing a wall of text when they are already written for me.

    Every country that has suffered due to the economic crisis has the housing bubble to thank for an increase in that. Not just the USA had a housing bubble, most European countries did too. So that's nothing special.

    On the matter of the recession: Dutch economy struggling to pull out of recession - central bank | Reuters
    The central bank states that the chance for growth next year is very dependent on the austerity measures to actually work, or else, deeper recession.
    So? You were talking about muslims in the Netherlands. Ray410 was talking about illegal immigration when he wrote:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ray410 View Post
    The Dutch have been overwhelmed with illegal immigration, just as in the United States. Dutch Immigration has been from Eastern Europe, ours from Mexico, South America, Cuba and other Hispanic areas as well as now from all parts of Asia.
    To which you responded:

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainman05 View Post
    That is true. In 2011, according to the census, nearly 5-6% of the population was islamic and people weren't happy because they felt that the experience of immigration from the arabic regions hasn't improved their country one bit.
    So no, what you wrote was about legal immigration of muslims and not illegals as Ray401 was talking about.

    And sadly the problem with Moroccans is purely one of our own making. In 1969 the Dutch government was of the opinion that we needed immigrants because we were economically highly prosperous and we had a shortage of workers for the low level entry jobs (cleaning, ordinary factory work, etc.) and instead of searching for qualified staff we took in a lot of Berber Moroccans who were often not able to read or write, had no education to speak off and were supposed to leave as soon as they were no longer needed. The Dutch government was of the opinion that they were stop gap employees and would leave in a few years, so they did not want them to integrate or learn proper Dutch. To be honest they did nothing to integrate them in any way shape or form.

    What we were left with is a large group of Moroccans which also had their wives come to the Netherlands. Most of them were also not able to read or write and most did not even leave their homes a lot of the time. They had children which went to Dutch schools but as their parents were unable to read or write in Arabic/Moroccan and were even less able to read, write of speak Dutch, these children were always lagging behind at school. Their skills in Dutch speaking and writing were very poorly when they went to school and as nothing was done to upgrade their levels of reading, writing or speaking Dutch, they went to vocational schools rather than more advanced schools and even then, most of them did not graduate.

    The problem then became that after living in the Netherlands for 30 years or more, these Moroccans that immigrated in 1969 and shortly after that, were so used to living here and had all their children and friends here that they did not want to leave the Netherlands anymore.

    Most of the Moroccans and their children live in the least prosperous areas of Dutch cities and that lead to these young Moroccans to get into trouble with crime and drugs etc. Their parents, which do not know Dutch properly and are almost totally not integrated in the society, are not respected by these young Moroccans who are mostly pretty much fluent in Dutch. The parents (poorly educated) are also rather conservative and they do not know how to teach their children about living in the liberal Dutch society which leads to a large disconnect. At home they have to live according to their parents archaic principles and in our Dutch society they are not at home either.

    This will all be solved sooner rather than later. They too are loosing their religion. Having fewer kids. The younger generation are getting better educated and they do know how to read and write Dutch.
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