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Thread: Assad tells Obama to stop arming rebels or no deal

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    Re: Assad tells Obama to stop arming rebels or no deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Jredbaron96 View Post
    You mean someone predicted that an militant from a wealthy family would develop a dislike of foreigners from his time in Afghanistan, and that later our Ally would invade a neutral country next to the militants country of birth, and that the militant would at that point gathered a group of fighters that he then offered to defend his homeland only to have it turned down by our offer of assistance, and that he would use this as justification for a terrorist attack?



    The US was ideologically opposed to the spread of communism.

    When the struggle was over we didn't turn Afghanistan into an ally. The Taliban moved in, took over and now we've lost thousands of American lives there.



    We didn't have the opportunity or the means.



    At best, rebel control of chemical weapons is disputed.
    You need to view our foreign policy in it's entire context. We have waged wars of preemption, police actions and regime change. Those reasons for war are questionable at best. We should go to war when our national security is threatened or our interests abroad come under attack. The last great hope of mankind should use it's military with great restraint.

    We assisted the mujadeen in Afghanistan for no other reason than to screw with the Russians. As we've had to learn for experience, Afghanistan is a country which no foreign invader has ever conquered. Russia eventually retreated but if we really wanted to screw with them, we'd have stayed out of it. I'm not claiming that anyone could foresee Bin Laden. My assertion that the effort was not worthwhile or not ideologically sound.

    We are opposed to the spread of Communism. We thought we were fighting it in Vietnam. How's that domino theory working out? Russia, with the collapse of the Soviet Union, is no longer communist, allowing it's citizens some property rights and a degree of capitalism.

    We have the means to stick our nose into any corner of the globe. Our military is pretty bad ass. We could have come to the aid of Tibet, we could stick our nose in Kashmir. We don't because it's not in our national interest. Neither is Syria.

    The rebels claim that they have chemical weapons. Are you calling them liars? Just curious.

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    Re: Assad tells Obama to stop arming rebels or no deal

    Quote Originally Posted by sawdust View Post
    You need to view our foreign policy in it's entire context. We have waged wars of preemption, police actions and regime change. Those reasons for war are questionable at best. We should go to war when our national security is threatened or our interests abroad come under attack. The last great hope of mankind should use it's military with great restraint.
    I'm not here to debate our entire foreign policy. This is one situation I am focusing on.

    We assisted the mujadeen in Afghanistan for no other reason than to screw with the Russians.
    Yes, because we were ideologically opposed to communism.


    Russia, with the collapse of the Soviet Union, is no longer communist, allowing it's citizens some property rights and a degree of capitalism.
    And led by a former KGB agent!

    We could have come to the aid of Tibet, we could stick our nose in Kashmir.
    Unlikely on both counts.

    We don't because it's not in our national interest. Neither is Syria.
    Incorrect. Syria is the main route through which Hezbollah fighters flow from Iran into Lebanon and Israel. An Assad government or an Islamic government it detrimental to our interests there.

    The rebels claim that they have chemical weapons. Are you calling them liars? Just curious.
    I would need to know who said it and see some evidence.
    "Human kindness has never weakened the stamina or softened the fiber of a free people. A nation does not have to be cruel to be tough."
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    Re: Assad tells Obama to stop arming rebels or no deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Jredbaron96 View Post
    Actually, if I recall correctly most are civilians that took up arms.



    The FSA has stated they do not view this as a Sectarian conflict.



    The FSA has Alawite fighters within their ranks.



    “But there will be no reprisals, as we also have Alawites in our ranks who oppose the [Bashar] al-Assad regime,” Al-Aday , FSA Officer



    They are still outnumbered by the 80,000 strong FSA.
    Well then you would be mistaken.....got a link on that most of the FSA are civilians?

    The unified command includes many with ties to the Muslim Brotherhood and to Salafists, who follow a puritanical interpretation of Islam. It excludes the most senior officers who have defected from Assad’s military, according to Reuters.....snip~

    Seems their own ideology puts that in dispute.

    Got a link that some of the Alawites are fighting in the Rebel/Terrorists ranks? As most that left Assad were Sunni who held Command positions that Assad had given to the Sunni.

    First off their Numbers were inflated from the get go. Moreover they had Fighters coming in and joining their Army from several Countries. Also the part about Syria breaking down into 3 regions put that into perspective. As what part of the Civilians are backing who.

    Moreover Al Nusra has the backing of 29 Civilian Councils and Committees.

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    Re: Assad tells Obama to stop arming rebels or no deal

    Quote Originally Posted by MMC View Post
    Well then you would be mistaken.....got a link on that most of the FSA are civilians?
    Q&A: Nir Rosen on Syria's armed opposition - Features - Al Jazeera English

    Excerpt: "AJ: Who are the fighters - army defectors, armed civilians or "armed gangs"?

    NR: The issue of defectors is a distraction. Armed resistance began long before defections started. While fighters are often portrayed in the media as defectors from the Syrian military, the majority are civilians who have taken up arms. The opposition believes it will have more legitimacy if fighters are dubbed "defectors", and described collectively as the Free Syrian Army.

    They are also not armed gangs, as the regime and its supporters describe them. They are much more akin to a popular armed struggle or an insurgency. In fact, many Syrian revolutionaries use the term muqawama, ["resistance"] to describe themselves. This I find particularly ironic, as the Syrian regime and its supporters champion "resistance" (to Israel and the West) as the reason for their legitimacy, and the reason why they are being targeted by an alleged "foreign conspiracy" in the form of this uprising."


    The unified command includes many with ties to the Muslim Brotherhood and to Salafists, who follow a puritanical interpretation of Islam. It excludes the most senior officers who have defected from Assad’s military, according to Reuters.....snip~

    Seems their own ideology puts that in dispute.
    Apparently, as the FSA has been fighting with the Al Nusar front.

    Got a link that some of the Alawites are fighting in the Rebel/Terrorists ranks?
    Syrian Opposition Call for No-Fly Zone, 8 October 2011

    First off their Numbers were inflated from the get go.
    Proof?

    Moreover they had Fighters coming in and joining their Army from several Countries.
    Your point? How does that change the number of fighters?

    Also the part about Syria breaking down into 3 regions put that into perspective. As what part of the Civilians are backing who.[/QUOTE]

    Moreover Al Nusra has the backing of 29 Civilian Councils and Committees.
    Al Nusar is still outnumbered.
    "Human kindness has never weakened the stamina or softened the fiber of a free people. A nation does not have to be cruel to be tough."
    -FDR

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    Re: Assad tells Obama to stop arming rebels or no deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Jredbaron96 View Post
    The fact that you just awarded victory to yourself stinks of desperation.
    The fact that you didn't check out those links with what was said and concerning sources......shows us what again?

    Oh did you need something more liberal like to chew on when it comes to The Rebels/Terrorists.


    Islamist Rebels Create Dilemma on Syria Policy

    In Syria’s largest city, Aleppo, rebels aligned with Al Qaeda control the power plant, run the bakeries and head a court that applies Islamic law. Elsewhere, they have seized government oil fields, put employees back to work and now profit from the crude they produce.

    Across Syria, rebel-held areas are dotted with Islamic courts staffed by lawyers and clerics, and by fighting brigades led by extremists. Even the Supreme Military Council, the umbrella rebel organization whose formation the West had hoped would sideline radical groups, is stocked with commanders who want to infuse Islamic law into a future Syrian government.

    Nowhere in rebel-controlled Syria is there a secular fighting force to speak of.

    More than two years of violence have radicalized the armed opposition fighting the government of President Bashar al-Assad, leaving few groups that both share the political vision of the United States and have the military might to push it forward.

    Among the most extreme groups is the notorious Al Nusra Front, the Qaeda-aligned force declared a terrorist organization by the United States, but other groups share aspects of its Islamist ideology in varying degrees.

    The Islamist character of the opposition reflects the main constituency of the rebellion, which has been led since its start by Syria’s Sunni Muslim majority, mostly in conservative, marginalized areas. The descent into brutal civil war has hardened sectarian differences, and the failure of more mainstream rebel groups to secure regular arms supplies has allowed Islamists to fill the void and win supporters.

    The religious agenda of the combatants sets them apart from many civilian activists, protesters and aid workers who had hoped the uprising would create a civil, democratic Syria.

    When the armed rebellion began, defectors from the government’s staunchly secular army formed the vanguard. The rebel movement has since grown to include fighters with a wide range of views, including Qaeda-aligned jihadis seeking to establish an Islamic emirate, political Islamists inspired by the Muslim Brotherhood and others who want an Islamic-influenced legal code like that found in many Arab states.

    Another prominent group, Ahrar al-Sham, shares much of Nusra’s extremist ideology but is made up mostly of Syrians.....snip~

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/28/wo...anted=all&_r=0

    The fact that you didn't know whats up.....leaves you where now? Weren't you saying something about Numbers? Who is in Control of the Largest City in Syria? Who is dictating law and running businesses? Who controls Almost the entire Northern Part of Syria?

    One thing is for certain.....its not the FSA and their STNC.

    Desperation?????.....not even if it was on your Life!!!!! <yawn>
    Last edited by MMC; 09-14-13 at 08:18 PM.

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    Re: Assad tells Obama to stop arming rebels or no deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Jredbaron96 View Post
    Q&A: Nir Rosen on Syria's armed opposition - Features - Al Jazeera English

    Excerpt: "AJ: Who are the fighters - army defectors, armed civilians or "armed gangs"?

    NR: The issue of defectors is a distraction. Armed resistance began long before defections started. While fighters are often portrayed in the media as defectors from the Syrian military, the majority are civilians who have taken up arms. The opposition believes it will have more legitimacy if fighters are dubbed "defectors", and described collectively as the Free Syrian Army.

    They are also not armed gangs, as the regime and its supporters describe them. They are much more akin to a popular armed struggle or an insurgency. In fact, many Syrian revolutionaries use the term muqawama, ["resistance"] to describe themselves. This I find particularly ironic, as the Syrian regime and its supporters champion "resistance" (to Israel and the West) as the reason for their legitimacy, and the reason why they are being targeted by an alleged "foreign conspiracy" in the form of this uprising."




    Apparently, as the FSA has been fighting with the Al Nusar front.



    Syrian Opposition Call for No-Fly Zone, 8 October 2011



    Proof?



    Your point? How does that change the number of fighters?

    Also the part about Syria breaking down into 3 regions put that into perspective. As what part of the Civilians are backing who.


    Al Nusar is still outnumbered.[/QUOTE]

    From your own link.

    According to the SFA, 12,000 soldiers have joined their ranks, with 18 brigades set up in various Syria cities.

    but 90 per cent of the army is Sunni and they are trying to make it sectarian by going in and killing Syrian civilians in Sunni areas,” said the SFA source, noting that the minority Alawite faith group still controls the majority of the heavy weaponry at the disposal of the Syrian army.

    “But there will be no reprisals, as we also have Alawites in our ranks who oppose the [Bashar] al-Assad regime,” he added. <<<<<Only validation is a Sunni Rebel.....got anything else on any Alawites going against Assad?


    Did you still need to see the links on how Al Nusra and others are Fighting the FSA and do you need the link with the FSA Commander saying that when Al Nusra comes they give them what they want.

    Proof.....from your own link and the one I just got done posting up.

    Also as to who the Civilians are backing who that also was just put up in post 175.
    Last edited by MMC; 09-14-13 at 08:18 PM.

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    Re: Assad tells Obama to stop arming rebels or no deal

    Part two to post 175.....

    Also from your link again.....

    The SFA’s senior leadership is based in Turkey and issues commands to the 18 rebel brigades, including the Kataeb Khaled bin Alwaleed in Homs and Kataeb al- Khashooshli and Kataeb Abu al-Fida in neighbouring cities.....snip~


    part 2.....

    As extremists rose in the rebel ranks, the United States sought to limit their influence, first by designating Nusra a terrorist organization, and later by pushing for the formation of the Supreme Military Council, which is linked to the exile opposition group, the Syrian National Coalition.

    Although led by an army defector, Gen. Salim Idris, the council has taken in the leaders of many overtly Islamist battalions. One called the Syrian Liberation Front has been integrated nearly wholesale into the council; many of its members coordinate closely with the Syrian Islamic Front, a group that includes the extremist Ahrar al-Sham, according to a recent report by Ms. O’Bagy, of the Institute for the Study of War.

    In the past, United States officials saw the Islamist groups’ abundant resources as the main draw for recruits, said Steven Heydemann, a senior adviser at the United States Institute of Peace, which works with the State Department.

    The strategy is based on the current assessment that popular appeal of these groups is transactional, not ideological, and that opportunities exist to peel people away by providing alternative support and resources,” he said.

    Mr. Heydemann acknowledged, however, that the current momentum toward radicalism could be hard to reverse.

    We all want an Islamic state and we want Shariah to be applied,” said Maawiya Hassan Agha, a rebel activist reached by Skype in the northern village of Sarmeen. He said a country’s laws should flow from its people’s beliefs and compared Syrians calling for Islamic law with the French banning Muslim women from wearing face veils.....snip~

    Pretty much is telling it like it is.....and from now the Liberal and Progressive leaning NY Times as well as AP, Reuters, and UPI.
    Last edited by MMC; 09-14-13 at 08:21 PM.

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    Re: Assad tells Obama to stop arming rebels or no deal

    Quote Originally Posted by MMC View Post
    The fact that you didn't check out those links with what was said and concerning sources......shows us what again?
    That I don't need to link spam with every post?


    Oh did you need something more liberal like to chew on when it comes to The Rebels/Terrorists.
    I'll take what's accurate, thank you.




    The fact that you didn't know whats up.....leaves you where now? Weren't you saying something about Numbers?
    That's funny, because your own link says: " But most of Nusra’s fighters joined the group for the weapons, not the ideology, he said, and some left after discovering the Qaeda connection.

    “Most of the youth who joined them did so to topple the regime, not because they wanted to join Al Qaeda,” he said, speaking on the condition of anonymity for fear of retaliation. "



    Desperation?????.....not even if it was on your Life!!!!! <yawn>
    Good thing its not.
    "Human kindness has never weakened the stamina or softened the fiber of a free people. A nation does not have to be cruel to be tough."
    -FDR

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    Re: Assad tells Obama to stop arming rebels or no deal

    Quote Originally Posted by MMC View Post
    Al Nusar is still outnumbered.
    Yes, thank you. I kno

    From your own link.

    According to the SFA, 12,000 soldiers have joined their ranks, with 18 brigades set up in various Syria cities.
    Again, from your link "But most of Nusra’s fighters joined the group for the weapons, not the ideology, he said, and some left after discovering the Qaeda connection.

    “Most of the youth who joined them did so to topple the regime, not because they wanted to join Al Qaeda,” he said, speaking on the condition of anonymity for fear of retaliation."


    “But there will be no reprisals, as we also have Alawites in our ranks who oppose the [Bashar] al-Assad regime,” he added. <<<<<Only validation is a Sunni Rebel.....got anything else on any Alawites going against Assad?
    Do you have anything to refute his claim?


    Did you still need to see the links on how Al Nusra and others are Fighting the FSA and do you need the link with the FSA Commander saying that when Al Nusra comes they give them what they want.
    Um, what exactly are you asking? I have the links that show the FSA fighting with the Al Nusra front.


    Also as to who the Civilians are backing who that also was just put up in post 175.
    Civilians will back who ever can shield them better.
    "Human kindness has never weakened the stamina or softened the fiber of a free people. A nation does not have to be cruel to be tough."
    -FDR

  10. #180
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    Re: Assad tells Obama to stop arming rebels or no deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Jredbaron96 View Post
    And I never said you did.



    What happened with Afghanistan and Osama Bin Laden was a series of un-foreseeable coincidences and circumstances that were far beyond out control.

    Syria is not being invaded by communist forces. We know who the bad guys are.
    Five years from now as we get ready to wage war in the next middleeastern country...

    What happened with Syria and Moaz al-Khatib was a series of un-foreseeable coincidences and circumstances that were far beyond out control.

    We know who the bad guys are this time, honest.

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