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US Police arrest Florida pastor

I'm curious. Why would your government feel the need to do something like that? What does it matter if some crackpot or his followers say something that is patently untrue and easily proven to be false?

Do you fear reprisals from members of your Jewish community similar to those of muslim fundamentalists? Perhaps you think Israel will nuke Amsterdam? I'm being facetious about the risks, but I still find it curious that your nation would make such a thing illegal.

Because it is illegal to discriminate and holocaust denial is a sort of discrimination.

And no, this has nothing to do with fear but with respect and out of respect for the 110,000 Dutch Jews who were murdered by the Germans the denial of that murder has been made illegal.
 
how is it discrimination?

It is part of our discrimination laws to deliberately make derogatory remarks towards a racial group. In this case denying the holocaust is seen as insulting and derogatory meant to defame and insult Jews.
 
It is part of our discrimination laws to deliberately make derogatory remarks towards a racial group. In this case denying the holocaust is seen as insulting and derogatory meant to defame and insult Jews.

Okay, you have "hate speech" laws. Fair enough. Far be it from me to judge how another society chooses to limit the exercise of individual rights. That's what national sovereignty is all about.

Just note, American's have a significantly different viewpoint in that area.
 
It is part of our discrimination laws to deliberately make derogatory remarks towards a racial group.

Yeah, I am responding to a post where you state it's viewed as discrimination under dutch law, and I never disputed that claim. What I asked was how does that actually amount to discrimination

In this case denying the holocaust is seen as insulting and derogatory meant to defame and insult Jews.

That seems a rather wide net to cast
 
Okay, you have "hate speech" laws. Fair enough. Far be it from me to judge how another society chooses to limit the exercise of individual rights. That's what national sovereignty is all about.

Just note, American's have a significantly different viewpoint in that area.

Yes, we have hate speech laws but these are only applicable when the comments which are found to be illegal/discriminatory or insulting are made publicly. If you are sitting in your living room and you tell your wife/brother/etc. something outside of the public domain you cannot be prosecuted because it falls under freedom of speech. You can only be prosecuted if you make public statements and not private statements.
 
Yeah, I am responding to a post where you state it's viewed as discrimination under dutch law, and I never disputed that claim. What I asked was how does that actually amount to discrimination



That seems a rather wide net to cast


I was just generalizing, but the our criminal law says

Artikel 137c

1. Hij die zich in het openbaar, mondeling of bij geschrift of afbeelding, opzettelijk beledigend uitlaat over een groep mensen wegens hun ras, hun godsdienst of levensovertuiging, hun hetero- of homoseksuele gerichtheid of hun lichamelijke, psychische of verstandelijke handicap, wordt gestraft met gevangenisstraf van ten hoogste een jaar of geldboete van de derde categorie.

1. He, who publicly, be it verbal/written or through images, intentionally makes insulting comments about a group of people because of their race, their religion or non-religious views, their sexual preference (be it straight or gay) or physical, psychological or mental handicap, will be punished with a prison sentence of no more than one year or a financial fine of the third scale.


2. Indien het feit wordt gepleegd door een persoon die daarvan een beroep of gewoonte maakt of door twee of meer verenigde personen wordt gevangenisstraf van ten hoogste twee jaren of geldboete van de vierde categorie opgelegd.

2. When the crime has been committed by a person who is doing this professionally or who makes a habit of the crimes mentioned in article 137c or who does it in union with 2 or other people can be sentenced to a prison sentence of no more than 2 years and a fine of the fourth scale.
 
I was just generalizing, but the our criminal law says

Artikel 137c

1. Hij die zich in het openbaar, mondeling of bij geschrift of afbeelding, opzettelijk beledigend uitlaat over een groep mensen wegens hun ras, hun godsdienst of levensovertuiging, hun hetero- of homoseksuele gerichtheid of hun lichamelijke, psychische of verstandelijke handicap, wordt gestraft met gevangenisstraf van ten hoogste een jaar of geldboete van de derde categorie.

1. He, who publicly, be it verbal/written or through images, intentionally makes insulting comments about a group of people because of their race, their religion or non-religious views, their sexual preference (be it straight or gay) or physical, psychological or mental handicap, will be punished with a prison sentence of no more than one year or a financial fine of the third scale.


2. Indien het feit wordt gepleegd door een persoon die daarvan een beroep of gewoonte maakt of door twee of meer verenigde personen wordt gevangenisstraf van ten hoogste twee jaren of geldboete van de vierde categorie opgelegd.

2. When the crime has been committed by a person who is doing this professionally or who makes a habit of the crimes mentioned in article 137c or who does it in union with 2 or other people can be sentenced to a prison sentence of no more than 2 years and a fine of the fourth scale.


Again, I'm not trying to dispute what Dutch law is, I am asking how does it actually amount to discrimination. As in, how would holocaust denial amount to "intentionally making insulting comments about a group of people".
 
Preventing free expression is exactly what Pastor Jones does.....



"....A "climate of fear and control" had previously prevailed in the congregation, says one former member of the church who does not want to be named. Instead of free expression, "blind obedience" was demanded, he says.

Various witnesses gave SPIEGEL ONLINE consistent accounts of the Jones' behavior. The pastor and his wife apparently regarded themselves as having been appointed by God, meaning opposition was a crime against the Lord. Terry and Sylvia Jones allegedly used these methods to ask for money in an increasingly insistent manner, as well as making members of the congregation carry out work....read...."

Islamophobe's Past in Germany: Terry Jones Accused of 'Spiritual Abuse' at Cologne Church - SPIEGEL ONLINE

It doesn't matter whether he's a jerk or not, he still has a right to free speech, just like everyone else. So how is his past relevant to the discussion?
 
It doesn't matter whether he's a jerk or not, he still has a right to free speech, just like everyone else. So how is his past relevant to the discussion?

His past helps to show that his intent isn't just peaceful protest or an exercise in free speech. His intent is to abuse the right to free speech to incite violence.
 
Again, I'm not trying to dispute what Dutch law is, I am asking how does it actually amount to discrimination. As in, how would holocaust denial amount to "intentionally making insulting comments about a group of people".

There are several things that fall under our discrimination/hate speech law, denying the holocaust is one of them, this has been decided by our highest court. Our highest court has decided that denying the holocaust is a crime because it is discrimination under the law.

This is the opinion of our highest court. It falls under our law of discrimination and hate speech.

The plight of the Dutch Jews under the holocaust is part of their culture, their political and social identity and their position in the Dutch society is directly connected to the holocaust. To claim that the Jews are liars, profiteers, etc. is compromising the human rights of the Jewish people.

In the Dutch criminal law discrimination is seen as:

Under Dutch law, discrimination or discriminatory is seen as all kinds of making difference between, refusal, limitation or preference, that has the intention of or could lead to issues with recognition, the pleasure or practicing on the basis of equality of human rights and the fundamental freedoms regarding the areas of politics, economic, social or culture of other areas of social existence are negated/nullified or compromised.
 
His past helps to show that his intent isn't just peaceful protest or an exercise in free speech. His intent is to abuse the right to free speech to incite violence.

Perhaps, but the article you posted does little to show intent to incite violence. It does cast the fellow and his wife as first class assholes, but that's about it. Besides, counting on Der Spiegel for any sort of moral authority or judgement on American matters is a huge mistake to begin with.
 
I'm confused as to why you think I give a flying rat's ass about what he's done before, we're talking about burning qurans.
It helps to know the kind of person you're defending.

He's exercising his freedoms, and you're screaming out of sheer terror for him to be stopped, because we should do whatever the muslims want us to. You refused to answer my pork question, by the way.
No, he's abusing the right to free speech to incite violence.


I thought your question about "pork" was a rhetorical slippery slope fallacy....


Flying_pig.gif
 
I don't think you are hearing my point Di. I agree, those idiots who retaliate with violence should exhibit greater control ...but they won't, and that is the first and most important reality here. Because it is a greater certainty that they will retaliate by the taking of innocent lives than that Americans will be asked to surrender more of their rights or freedoms. It seems a bit selfish and stubborn for anyone to suggest we stand with our feet firmly planted refusing to give an inch so that we don't appear weak when lives are at risk. I think we have a greater obligation to address the reality or what we know rather than risk those lives because of what we "fear" will happen if we do. That is a slippery slope fallacy and I never have much respect for those. I think they are rooted in unreasoned fear.

I don't. It's a founding principle of the rights of all Americans. It is not a fallacy that if we give up rights up to protect ourselves from people who might get mad because we exercise them, that we will continue to be threatened if we exercise other rights that our enemies do not wish us to have. You may not respect it, but it is nonetheless a fact.

So we disagree.
 
There are several things that fall under our discrimination/hate speech law, denying the holocaust is one of them, this has been decided by our highest court. Our highest court has decided that denying the holocaust is a crime because it is discrimination under the law.

Yes, Peter, I understand that. But pointing to what is established law doesn't answer my question.

To claim that the Jews are liars, profiteers, etc. is compromising the human rights of the Jewish people.

1 Jews are liars~!!!

How did I just compromise the human right's of Mbig? I doubt the fellow even noticed

2) How does questioning a historical event inherently "claim that the Jews are liars, profiteers, etc"?

3) While such can be used to attack Jewish people, so what? Are you saying such words can't be challenged, or that outlawing such words prevents people from still thinking or even communicating such things (which actually makes them only harder to address)?

In the Dutch criminal law discrimination is seen as:

Under Dutch law, discrimination or discriminatory is seen as all kinds of making difference between, refusal, limitation or preference, that has the intention of or could lead to issues with recognition, the pleasure or practicing on the basis of equality of human rights and the fundamental freedoms regarding the areas of politics, economic, social or culture of other areas of social existence are negated/nullified or compromised.[/QUOTE]
 
It helps to know the kind of person you're defending.....

I have defended the free speech rights of many sleezebags (and unsung heroes) over the years. Freedom isn't a popularity contest.
 
I thought your question about "pork" was a rhetorical slippery slope fallacy....


Flying_pig.gif

Is it really a slippery slope fallacy when they are rioting over a man who wants to burn or flush their holy book, and no one in America has even heard of the guy, let alone joined his congregation? (I'm especially speaking of the first time he became a target of rage)

Is it really a slippery slope fallacy when the administration blamed a pretty unknown Facebook video from an unknown director for the initial mass wave of violent protests at our embassies?

Let's face it. This is utterly ridiculous.
 
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Prior Restraint

The Court uses a stringent standard when it evaluates statutes that impose a Prior Restraint on speech. The test that is most frequently employed asks whether the prohibited activity poses a Clear and Present Danger of resulting in damage to a legitimate government interest. Most often, the clear-and-present-danger doctrine has applied to prior restraints on the publication of materials thought to threaten national security. This test was first expressed by Justice Holmes in the Schenck case. Charles T. Schenck had been charged with violating the Espionage Act (Tit. 1, §§ 3, 4 [Comp. St. 1918, §§ 10212c, 10212d]) by distributing pamphlets that urged insubordination among members of the military. The Court held that his activities created "a clear and present danger that they will bring about the substantive evils that Congress has a right to prevent." The government's interest in maintaining national security and preventing dissension among the troops outweighed Schenck's interest in free speech.

The clear-and-present-danger test was extended during the 1950s, when widespread fear of Communism led to the passage of the Smith Act, 18 U.S.C.A. § 2385, which prohibited advocating the overthrow of the government. The act was challenged as a prior restraint on speech. It was upheld by the U.S. Supreme Court, which stated that the clear-and-present-danger test does not require the government to prove that a threat is imminent or that a plot probably would be successful (Dennis v. United States, 341 U.S. 494, 71 S. Ct. 857, 95 L. Ed. 1137[1951]).

The Dennis decision was criticized as weakening the clear-and-present-danger test and allowing the government too much freedom to restrict speech. These results were remedied somewhat in Brandenburg v. Ohio, 395 U.S. 444, 89 S. Ct. 1827, 23 L. Ed. 2d 430 (1969), in which the Court invalidated a statute that punished the advocacy of violence in industrial disputes. The Court held that the government cannot forbid the advocacy of the use of force unless that advocacy is directed to inciting imminent illegal activity and is likely to succeed.

Expressive Conduct

In West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, 319 U.S. 624, 63 S. Ct. 1178, 87 L. Ed. 1628 (1943), Justice robert h. jackson wrote that symbols are "a short cut from mind to mind." Expressive conduct or Symbolic Speech involves communicative conduct that is the behavioral equivalent of speech. The conduct itself is the idea or message. Some expressive conduct is the equivalent of speech and is protected by the First Amendment.

In tinker v. des moines independent community school district, 393 U.S. 503, 89 S. Ct. 733, 21 L. Ed. 2d 731 (1969), the U.S. Supreme Court held that it was unconstitutional to suspend high-school students for wearing black armbands to protest the Vietnam War, because their conduct was "akin to pure speech" and did not interfere with the work of the school or the rights of other students.....

....Statutes that prohibit the desecration of the U.S. flag have been found to restrict free expression unconstitutionally. In texas v. johnson, 491 U.S. 397, 109 S. Ct. 2533, 105 L. Ed. 2d 342 (1989), the Court overturned Gregory L. Johnson's conviction for burning a U.S. flag during a demonstration. Johnson's actions were communicative conduct that warranted First Amendment protection, even though they were repugnant to many people. Similarly, in United States v. Eichman, 496 U.S. 310, 110 S. Ct. 2404, 110 L. Ed. 2d 287 (1990), the Court struck down the federal Flag Protection Act of 1989, 103 Stat. 777, 18 U.S.C.A. § 700, stating that the government's interest in passing the act had been a desire to suppress free expression and the content of the message that the act of flag burning conveys......

legal definition of Inciting, Provocative, or Offensive Speech.
 
That was pretty dangerous...

Dude (Terry Jones?) should have transported the books then set them on fire...
 
I don't. It's a founding principle of the rights of all Americans. It is not a fallacy that if we give up rights up to protect ourselves from people who might get mad because we exercise them, that we will continue to be threatened if we exercise other rights that our enemies do not wish us to have. You may not respect it, but it is nonetheless a fact.

So we disagree.

I can engage with someone who passionately defends their position in opposition to me and maintain respect for them as a person. Especially when they are civil and fair. I always see you practice both. So yes, we disagree and that's fine.
 
Yes, Peter, I understand that. But pointing to what is established law doesn't answer my question.

but what else do you want? You ask as to why it is discrimination, well, it is discrimination because that is how it works. Saying that the Jews have lied/made up the holocaust is an insult to the Jewish people in general and an insult to the Dutch Jews that survived the holocaust.

1 Jews are liars~!!!

How did I just compromise the human right's of Mbig? I doubt the fellow even noticed

Dignity is part of human rights, by making the racist remark that Jews lie, people violate the law that forbids insulting a whole people.

2) How does questioning a historical event inherently "claim that the Jews are liars, profiteers, etc"?

The trial in which the high court decided that denial of the holocaust violated our anti-discrimination/hate speech law, and the reason why I said "profiteers" was because the suspect in the case said:

De zes miljoen is wellicht de zwendel van deze eeuw, die zowel door het establishment, door de belanghebbenden als door het onkritisch en gemakzuchtig denken wordt in stand gehouden," en. Waarom is deze discussie nog aktueel? Voor de Holocaust-supporters betekent het aanzienlijke financiële steun voor de staat Israël, een eindeloze bron van inkomsten voor de overlevenden en hun nakomelingen, maar vooral een moreel vrij spel voor het zionisme in het Midden-Oosten

The 6 million might be the biggest scam of the century, that is being continued by the establishment, as well as the people who stand to gain by this scam. And this scam is being kept in place through no critical thought process and never criticizing and complacence. Why is this discussion still being held today? Because for the holocaust supporters this scam means large financial support for the state of Israel, an endless source of income for the survivors and their decendants, but it is especially meant to create a moral firewall for the Zionism in the Middle East.

And this person had even a lot more comments about the lies and deceitful nature of the Jews (which is BS of course).

3) While such can be used to attack Jewish people, so what? Are you saying such words can't be challenged, or that outlawing such words prevents people from still thinking or even communicating such things (which actually makes them only harder to address)?

No, I am saying that denying the holocaust in the Netherlands can get you prosecuted. And the courts and the justice department are the ones who either prosecute or convict people who break this law.
 
Perhaps, but the article you posted does little to show intent to incite violence. It does cast the fellow and his wife as first class assholes, but that's about it. Besides, counting on Der Spiegel for any sort of moral authority or judgement on American matters is a huge mistake to begin with.

Der Spiegal merely confirms what other articles have said about him. Apparently, Pastor Jones has a long history of using fear and intimidation to gain attention for himself.
 
I'm glad that an idiot wasn't allowed to burn thousands of religious texts and by doing so endanger nato soldiers in Afghan. Yes I'm very glad

So, by not burning the Korans, the islamofacists hate us less? They won't try to kill our troops, now? Combat in Afghanistan will just be dangerous vice real dangerous?
 
Aside from driving down the highway towing a bbq full of Qurans doused in kerosene without a permit......apparently he was attempting to incite violence and retaliation against US and NATO troops in Afganistan.

From the OP...

Oh right...because the IF's weren't already trying to kill our troops. It's totally amazing how people fell for that BS.
 
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