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US Police arrest Florida pastor

Moot said:
Burning books is the context of this discussion and the Nazis burned books. You lose for invoking Godwin's Law.
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You truly do not understand the great difference between the state conducting a systematic clensing of materials and a lone nut job performing a symbolic protest?
 
CanadaJohn said:
We do, as does every western society - but not to the extent exercised in this case.
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I probably don't remember correctly... but I thought Canadians couldn't discuss or dispute the holocaust.
 
Am I the only one here old enough to remember when liberalism involved SUPPORT for free speech instead of this supporting the agenda of the worst jack booted totalitarians on the planet who wish to make a crime of any criticism of their political agenda?

Sure, this pastor is a right wing nut job, but let's get a handle here, folks. What you are supporting is a much, MUCH further right wing agenda in your myopic support for this attack on free speech.
 
Gardener said:
I don't think anybody is really missing your point. It's more a matter of disagreeing with you very strongly that we should support the Islamist objective of creating fundamental changes in our freedoms and finding your excuses for such support to be highly fallacious.
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Nope didn’t understand my point. Military objectives are more important than political ideologies and civil unrest gets in the way of the objective.

What you and others are saying is lovely and romantic but not practical in this day and age.
 
Hard Truth said:
There are standards for when expression can legally be considered incitement of a riot, a major component is likelihood of imminent danger. It is not determined by the viewpoint expressed and whether it might offend someone. A riot that happens a few days later or hundreds of miles away is not legally considered to have been incited by the views of the original speaker (or book burner).

Some other nations have hate speech laws, the USA doesn't. I'm glad because they can be used to silence speech legitimately criticizing religions or groups of people, for example those who criticize the Catholic Church's protection of child molesters.
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How do you justify the violence that broke out days and weeks after MLK spoke?
 
DiAnna said:
Calling me a name may seem cute to you, but it certainly didn't assist your post in making any sense. I fail to see where I am threatening retaliation for Americans exercising free speech.



I was unaware the government arrested her and put her on trial for exercising free speech. Sure, people can call other people the N-word... but there are consequences in a free society, and one of those consequences is to lose sponsors who take offense.



That's true. However, we do not remove constitutional rights for people in the US because someone around the world may get upset and threaten violence. Under your interpretation, free speech would only be a right so long as others aren't angered by it.



So should we suspend our constitutional rights whenever someone around the world might take offense and retaliate? That kind of fear would keep us from putting Muslim mass murderers like Hassan on trial, because some Muslim group might threaten to kill Americans if we do. You can see how that would snowball: Release everyone from Gitmo in two hours or Americans will die; release convicted Islamists terrorist or Americans will die; drop bombs on Tel Aviv or Americans will die... and on it goes. The constitution, as I've said, is not a suggestion. It protects the rights of all Americans, even those we despise. If we start picking out people we don't want to have free speech because of fear or offense, then none of us will ever have free speech again.



Exactly. I don't understand why that is so difficult for some to comprehend.
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Good to see you admit actions have consequences.
 
Higgins86 said:
AGAIN its not about their feeling its about our soldiers and the mission, mass civllian riots gets in the way of the mission and endanegrs lives.....

talking to myself at this point because you all seem to miss the point im making.
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Well, seeing as how that's your only reasoning, then let's undergo a little thought experiment here. What if the islamists greatly opposed our eating of pork, and threatened to kill someone every day the western world continues to eat pork. Would you argue just as passionately that we should all bend to their will? Are you of the firm belief that islamists should be able to hold the western world hostage with their threats of violence?

Frankly, the fact that we're even having this conversation tell us that the terrorists have won. People like you are so god damn terrified, that you readily hand over liberty to appease them. I find it particularly disturbing that you, a former (or current) soldier, of all people, would hold such a pansy position.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
People like you are so god damn terrified, that you readily hand over liberty to appease them. .
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while accusing those who uphold principles instead of reacting with this morbid fear as being the emotional ones.

Can we say "projection" here, kids?
 
Higgins86 said:
Nope didn’t understand my point. Military objectives are more important than political ideologies and civil unrest gets in the way of the objective.

What you and others are saying is lovely and romantic but not practical in this day and age.
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The romanticism is in believing that if we just concede a little, to appease terrorists, that they will somehow come to accept us, and not wish to change our way of life in the western world. When you are up against someone who is rigid, it is foolish to conform to them, unless you don't really have any values that you are willing to uphold at all costs.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
Wait... what? Who are you attributing what to?
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Not you.


Higgins is attributing emotion to those responses that do not share his desire to appease Islamists by supporting their objective. He is reacting with fearful emotions while projecting them upon those who adhere to principles.
 
sangha said:
Does Canada prohibit the denial of the Holocaust?

I suspect that was what Sharona was referring to and I honestly don't know the answer
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I do not know about Canada so I cannot speak of that but in the Netherlands the highest court of the country has said that it is illegal in the Netherlands to talk down the horror/death count of the holocaust, deny or to condone/justify the holocaust.
 
Higgins86 said:
It just saddens me that you guys and gals jump over any non American post on here with contempt and suspicion. I'm not anti American I am in fact married to one and love your country like a second home. I offered many compelling reasons why this man shouldn't burn any religious texts mainly to protect American/ Nato soldiers and American Diplomatic workers. I have nothing but respect for Amrican history and your constitution which was a master piece written by very smart men however I value human life more especially the men and women in uniform and don't feel its in our interest to make they already heavy workload heavier.

I guess it is what it is and in this instance we are miles apart.
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Your arguments would be appropriate if they were directed solely at the book burning preacher only. But freedom of speech etc is considered one of the most essential rights in the USA, and rightfully so, because without the right to express oneself freely there can be no democracy and all of our other rights will no longer be secure. We can not let the potential response of people across the world justify letting our government start deciding what we are allowed to say.
 
lolabird said:
How do you justify the violence that broke out days and weeks after MLK spoke?
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You should ask the violent people to justify themselves. I had nothing to do with it, and never made excuses for it. MLK never called for violence, rather, he very consistently opposed all violence.

Are you saying that MLK should have been silenced by the government?
 
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Hard Truth said:
You should ask the violent people to justify themselves. I had nothing to do with it, and never made excuses for it. MLK never called for violence, rather, he very consistently opposed all violence.

Are you saying that MLK should have been silenced by the government?
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Yes, she's saying that. It's truly horrible that she thinks MLK should not have spoken about equality because some folks were uncomfortable.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
Holy ****. You're really comparing burning books with ordering people to kill someone? That's like an all new level of hyperbolic garbage.

So in your mind, we should ban ANYTHING that will inspire the islamists to kill people? What if they started killing people every day until we gave up pork? Would you be down? Or would you do a complete 180 and start talking about freedom?

How dare some bastard eat pork when he KNOWS islamists will kill people for it!
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I said the Nazi's burned books. Whatever else you read into it says more about you than it does me.


Sharona was right....Pastor Jones lived in Germany.....


"....While living in Germany, Jones was fined $3800 by a Cologne court for using the "doctor" title awarded with an honorary degree from an unaccredited school.[10] Jones appealed the German government's ruling and later won the right to use the title there.[11]

According to the German Evangelical Alliance, Jones was released from the leadership of the Christliche Gemeinde Köln in 2008 due to his indefensible theological statements and his craving for attention.[12] The Gainesville Sun reported that he left the church in Germany after being accused of fraud.[3] A leader of the Cologne church said that Jones "didn't project the biblical values and Christianity, but always made himself the center of everything."[this quote needs a citation] German press agency Deutsche Presse-Agentur reported that church members said Jones ran the Cologne church like a sect leader and used psychological pressure on members, “subordinating all activities to his will.”[13] Der Spiegel reported that Jones had been ejected by Cologne church for creating "a climate of control and fear."[14][15] Following Jones' departure, the CGK closed, then reopened under new, independent, leadership.
Terry Jones (pastor) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Stephen Baar, one of the current pastors of the Christian Community of Cologne church in west Germany, told news agency DPA Jones expected 'blind obedience' from those who came to worship. In addition to forbidding free expression, there were a number of 'financial irregularities' when Jones and his wife Sylvia were in charge.

Andrew Schafer, an official responsible for monitoring churches in the region of Cologne said people who were ministered by Jones are still in therapy for 'spiritual abuse'.....
Koran burning pastor Terry Jones was expelled from German church | Mail Online
 
Moot said:
I said the Nazi's burned books. Whatever else you read into it says more about you than it does me.


Sharona was right....Pastor Jones lived in Germany.....


"....While living in Germany, Jones was fined $3800 by a Cologne court for using the "doctor" title awarded with an honorary degree from an unaccredited school.[10] Jones appealed the German government's ruling and later won the right to use the title there.[11]

According to the German Evangelical Alliance, Jones was released from the leadership of the Christliche Gemeinde Köln in 2008 due to his indefensible theological statements and his craving for attention.[12] The Gainesville Sun reported that he left the church in Germany after being accused of fraud.[3] A leader of the Cologne church said that Jones "didn't project the biblical values and Christianity, but always made himself the center of everything."[this quote needs a citation] German press agency Deutsche Presse-Agentur reported that church members said Jones ran the Cologne church like a sect leader and used psychological pressure on members, “subordinating all activities to his will.”[13] Der Spiegel reported that Jones had been ejected by Cologne church for creating "a climate of control and fear."[14][15] Following Jones' departure, the CGK closed, then reopened under new, independent, leadership.
Terry Jones (pastor) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Stephen Baar, one of the current pastors of the Christian Community of Cologne church in west Germany, told news agency DPA Jones expected 'blind obedience' from those who came to worship. In addition to forbidding free expression, there were a number of 'financial irregularities' when Jones and his wife Sylvia were in charge.

Andrew Schafer, an official responsible for monitoring churches in the region of Cologne said people who were ministered by Jones are still in therapy for 'spiritual abuse'.....
Koran burning pastor Terry Jones was expelled from German church | Mail Online
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So you're backing away from the Charles Manson argument? Good, it was ridiculous.

And the article you posted describes pretty much 90+% of religious leaders.
 
Hard Truth said:
Your arguments would be appropriate if they were directed solely at the book burning preacher only. But freedom of speech etc is considered one of the most essential rights in the USA, and rightfully so, because without the right to express oneself freely there can be no democracy and all of our other rights will no longer be secure. We can not let the potential response of people across the world justify letting our government start deciding what we are allowed to say.
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Preventing free expression is exactly what Pastor Jones does.....



"....A "climate of fear and control" had previously prevailed in the congregation, says one former member of the church who does not want to be named. Instead of free expression, "blind obedience" was demanded, he says.

Various witnesses gave SPIEGEL ONLINE consistent accounts of the Jones' behavior. The pastor and his wife apparently regarded themselves as having been appointed by God, meaning opposition was a crime against the Lord. Terry and Sylvia Jones allegedly used these methods to ask for money in an increasingly insistent manner, as well as making members of the congregation carry out work....read...."

Islamophobe's Past in Germany: Terry Jones Accused of 'Spiritual Abuse' at Cologne Church - SPIEGEL ONLINE
 
RabidAlpaca said:
So you're backing away from the Charles Manson argument? Good, it was ridiculous.

And the article you posted describes pretty much 90+% of religious leaders.
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The article I posted is about Pastor Jones. Whatever else you read into it says more about you than Pastor Jones.
 
Peter King said:
I do not know about Canada so I cannot speak of that but in the Netherlands the highest court of the country has said that it is illegal in the Netherlands to talk down the horror/death count of the holocaust, deny or to condone/justify the holocaust.
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I'm curious. Why would your government feel the need to do something like that? What does it matter if some crackpot or his followers say something that is patently untrue and easily proven to be false?

Do you fear reprisals from members of your Jewish community similar to those of muslim fundamentalists? Perhaps you think Israel will nuke Amsterdam? I'm being facetious about the risks, but I still find it curious that your nation would make such a thing illegal.
 
Moot said:
The article I posted is about Pastor Jones. Whatever else you read into it says more about you than Pastor Jones.
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I'm confused as to why you think I give a flying rat's ass about what he's done before, we're talking about burning qurans.

He's exercising his freedoms, and you're screaming out of sheer terror for him to be stopped, because we should do whatever the muslims want us to. You refused to answer my pork question, by the way.
 
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