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US Police arrest Florida pastor

Its not the muslims in the US that are the issue

Why pretend to have freedom if you are going to cower behind not offending someone somewhere who are offended by your very existence already?
 
Kinda torn on this issue.


On the one hand, free expression is free expression.


On the other, stunts like this DO stir **** and may get people killed in reaction.


Dunno.
 
Why pretend to have freedom if you are going to cower behind not offending someone somewhere who are offended by your very existence already?

Well like it or not the US is the world leader and everything she does has a consequence, you have soldiers fighting in Muslim countries, embassies and have huge business ties in Muslim countries. A US soldier/ allied soldier/ embassy worker gets killed because of the actions of a radical in your own country is something you have to control. Now if the US were isolationists then I would say crack on but your not and unfourtuntly if you want to keep order/ remain on good terms with these people you have to make some sacrifices.
 
Kinda torn on this issue.


On the one hand, free expression is free expression.


On the other, stunts like this DO stir **** and may get people killed in reaction.


Dunno.

I am more concerned this was to be done in a public park and that he apparently was carting around fuel-soaked books. If a person had tossed a butt, who knows what may have happened. If he were doing this on their own church property, I would have no problem with it, whether he was burning them, Bibles, Playboys, etc.
 
Its not the muslims in the US that are the issue

Which makes your disregard for free speech even worse.

People in the United States should not have free speech because somebody in some hell hole like Afghanistan might not approve.
 
Well like it or not the US is the world leader and everything she does has a consequence, you have soldiers fighting in Muslim countries, embassies and have huge business ties in Muslim countries. A US soldier/ allied soldier/ embassy worker gets killed because of the actions of a radical in your own country is something you have to control. Now if the US were isolationists then I would say crack on but your not and unfourtuntly if you want to keep order/ remain on good terms with these people you have to make some sacrifices.

What makes you think we want to be on good terms with them? As soon as their oil is gone, they could rot on Hades for all the US government will care.
 
Its not the muslims in the US that are the issue

I was trying to make this point earlier to to avail. The difference I see with this man exercising his right to free speech with this act is that it is not just him that could potentially suffer the repercussions from any retaliation. We also can be assured that the threats of retaliation are fairly credible. If we could be assured that radicals around the world would look for THIS guy to retaliate against then fine, but we can not make such assurances.
 
This guy has nothing to do with religion. He's a hate monger. What ever he says should be ignored.

But....

If burning the American Flag is protected as speech, then so should this be.

My concern is not related to the douche bag that calls himself a preacher, but the fact that Free Speech took a hit today.

Our troops in A-stan or anywhere else, do not need our Consitutional Rights infringed upon to supposedly keep them safe from reprisal.

Trust me, the Taliban, Al Qaeda, Muslim Brotherhood, or any other Islamic Extremist don't need any additional reasons to attack and kill our military or our civilians even here at home; just the fact that we exist is reason enough.

Don't use the safety of the military as an excuse to stifle Free Speech.

What this guy needs is an old fashioned country ass kickin'. Not to be arrested for some dumbasstic act of burning some books.
 
What makes you think we want to be on good terms with them? As soon as their oil is gone, they could rot on Hades for all the US government will care.

I really enjoyed living in the ME... and I enjoyed living in Switzerland. I enjoyed the difference in culture and cuisine.. and getting to know people. I loved traveling in Denmark, Greece, France and elsewhere.. Some people enjoy that sort of thing.
 
What makes you think we want to be on good terms with them? As soon as their oil is gone, they could rot on Hades for all the US government will care.

What makes me think that? Your governments tone and its actions.
 
Which makes your disregard for free speech even worse.

People in the United States should not have free speech because somebody in some hell hole like Afghanistan might not approve.

unfortunately Gardener that is the name of the game! If you are going to send your troops into hostile territory you have an obligation to protect them and help make their job easier.
 
I feel comfortable saying that I place protecting innocent lives above anyones right to free speech. It sounds like that is your point. It seems people are usually all over protecting rights until its their life that is traded for that right. Then you better be damn sure that freedom is actually at risk.

Aside from being a rather blatant appeal to emotion, you really should consider you may be speaking to someone who has already placed his life on the line for such freedoms. ;)

If you are not willing to risk your life in defense of what you believe are your freedoms, then you will never truly be free.
 
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This guy has nothing to do with religion. He's a hate monger. What ever he says should be ignored.

But....

If burning the American Flag is protected as speech, then so should this be.

My concern is not related to the douche bag that calls himself a preacher, but the fact that Free Speech took a hit today.

Our troops in A-stan or anywhere else, do not need our Consitutional Rights infringed upon to supposedly keep them safe from reprisal.

Trust me, the Taliban, Al Qaeda, Muslim Brotherhood, or any other Islamic Extremist don't need any additional reasons to attack and kill our military or our civilians even here at home; just the fact that we exist is reason enough.

Don't use the safety of the military as an excuse to stifle Free Speech.

What this guy needs is an old fashioned country ass kickin'. Not to be arrested for some dumbasstic act of burning some books.

Yeah, you rite!
 
Aside from being a rather blatant appeal to emotion, you really should consider you may be speaking to someone who has already placed his life on the line for such freedoms. ;)

If you are not willing to risk your life in defense of what you believe are your freedoms, then you will never truly be free.

Talk about playing the emotion card. You made that choice for yourself. Those who could be impacted by any retaliation because of what this guy did where will not have afforded that same opportunity.
 
Talk about playing the emotion card. You made that choice for yourself. Those who could be impacted by any retaliation because of what this guy did where will not have afforded that same opportunity.

Not playing any card at all. Merely stating a fact.

If you are so afraid of the harm that can come to you (or others) from the reactions of those opposed to your exercising those freedoms, then you are no longer free. You have enslaved yourself to whomever you fear.
 
This is not the first time this man of God? has burned a Quran. Any intent to cause a riot should be protected under the First Amendment, right?

There are standards for when expression can legally be considered incitement of a riot, a major component is likelihood of imminent danger. It is not determined by the viewpoint expressed and whether it might offend someone. A riot that happens a few days later or hundreds of miles away is not legally considered to have been incited by the views of the original speaker (or book burner).

Some other nations have hate speech laws, the USA doesn't. I'm glad because they can be used to silence speech legitimately criticizing religions or groups of people, for example those who criticize the Catholic Church's protection of child molesters.
 
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Agreed that he has a constitutional right to free speech...

And really, if Jones wants to continue to make it all about him on every anniversay of the 9/11 tragedy (because this is not the first time he has said he is going to burn a Quran on the anniversary of 9/11), why doesn't he just burn a Quran? I mean he should stop talking about it every year and just get it over with. Show us he's not wasting everybody's time. At least hold a match up to a Quran, get a crazed look in his eyes and wave his arms around like one of the extremist lunatics you see in the ME, dance around a little, spit a little and then do it. Burn baby burn!

Instead he's a coward and a ***** who talks the talk but won't walk the walk. He wants to make it all about him on 9/11 and take focus away from the victims. A religious nutjob who is no different to the WBC and those he condemns. Here's a thought, next year when he goes down the same path - he should be able to burn as many as he likes. The media shouldn't give him the platform that he so desperately desires and should instead just focus on commemorating the anniversary of the attack and honor the victims and survivors without the nutjobs getting the media attention.
 
The police routinely detain suspects with the formal charges coming later, so no conspiracy there.

I see the freedoms associated with religion like most others, yours ends at my nose. Praise GAWD all you want, but attacking another religion is over the line. Would we sit by and claim 1st amendment rights to burn a BBQ full of Torahs coz them Jews kilt Jesus?

The ACLU defended the right of Nazis to march through a Jewish neighborhood and they were right to do so. Freedom of speech needs to be virtually absolute* or it doesn't exist.

*restrictions on libel and incitement of riots are legit, few others are.
 
again its fine for you to take this is moral high ground but you are not the one who will be put in harms way when the Islamic world reacts to events like this. Its not even a case of being "bullied" its just common sense.

You are saying you want people to be ruled by fear of what the bully will do if you anger the bully.
You are saying you do not want the bully to stop being the bully.
You are saying you do not care if the bully is given the freedom to continually be the bully.


You just want the bully to leave you alone.
Only, the bully is not going to leave you alone no matter what you do or don't do, because the bully doesn't want to be nice.
The bully wants you to continue to fear him.
The bully wants to control you. . . and you're letting him. The bully's mission is being accomplished because you're too afraid to stand up to the bully.

That's where the US soldier comes into the mix. We stand up to the bully. We're like the referee on the game field, the tough guy who stands up for the little kid on the playground.

Don't you want your loved ones to be free from the bully?
If you cared about them at all then your answer should be yes. Your answer should be, yes, I want the bully to be stopped, ended, thwarted, and overthrown.

But you're not talking peace and freedom, you're talking continuing the tyranny by kissing the bully's arse.

To add:
You're exactly wrong - I am directly affected.

How on earth can you support something that will kill your loved ones because of what one person on the other side of the world does? How can you just tolerate that hanging over your head? Why aren't you standing up and putting a bullet in the bully's head to protect your loved one's?

If I had some gang in my country ruining my life I would not just sit by, I wouldn't want to raise my children, and my grandchildren, in such deplorable conditions - telling them to 'shh, be quiet and the bad guy will look the other way.' I would fight and die if I had to - if it would make a difference.

What's wrong with you?

If the people who wanted this so-called peace stood up for them selves and actually did something about it the US then everyone else wouldn't have to constantly step in and police the world.

But, sorry, we do, because we don't want our countries to be taken over by the same spineless, gutless inaction that has sent the rest of the world into the pit. We refuse to let such tripe control us in that way, and you should too.

If you actually cared.

Quit making others into the scapegoat, it's bull****.
 
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You are saying you want people to be ruled by fear of what the bully will do if you anger the bully.
You are saying you do not want the bully to stop being the bully.
You are saying you do not care if the bully is given the freedom to continually be the bully.


You just want the bully to leave you alone.
Only, the bully is not going to leave you alone no matter what you do or don't do, because the bully doesn't want to be nice.
The bully wants you to continue to fear him.
The bully wants to control you. . . and you're letting him. The bully's mission is being accomplished because you're too afraid to stand up to the bully.

That's where the US soldier comes into the mix. We stand up to the bully. We're like the referee on the game field, the tough guy who stands up for the little kid on the playground.

Don't you want your loved ones to be free from the bully?
If you cared about them at all then your answer should be yes. Your answer should be, yes, I want the bully to be stopped, ended, thwarted, and overthrown.

But you're not talking peace and freedom, you're talking continuing the tyranny by kissing the bully's arse.

To add:
You're exactly wrong - I am directly affected.

How on earth can you support something that will kill your loved ones because of what one person on the other side of the world does? How can you just tolerate that hanging over your head? Why aren't you standing up and putting a bullet in the bully's head to protect your loved one's?

If I had some gang in my country ruining my life I would not just sit by, I wouldn't want to raise my children, and my grandchildren, in such deplorable conditions - telling them to 'shh, be quiet and the bad guy will look the other way.' I would fight and die if I had to - if it would make a difference.

What's wrong with you?

If the people who wanted this so-called peace stood up for them selves and actually did something about it the US then everyone else wouldn't have to constantly step in and police the world.

But, sorry, we do, because we don't want our countries to be taken over by the same spineless, gutless inaction that has sent the rest of the world into the pit. We refuse to let such tripe control us in that way, and you should too.

If you actually cared.

Quit making others into the scapegoat, it's bull****.

Ok its very late where I am and im up watching the Patriots play like **** so excuse my bluntness.

1. Please mind your tone and speak to me with some respect. I fought for my country and stood side by side with America in Iraq. I experienced the worst few days of my life in Basra Iraq because a tabloid newspaper printed a story with pictures which ended up to be false but the backlash from that story got people I know killed and put me through hell. So believe me when I say I know exactly how it feels to be put in danger because of some bull**** that is happening thousands of miles away.
2. Stop playing the victim card. I'm fed up of listening to American posters bitch and moan about being the " world police" and " cleaning up other peoples mess". America looks after her own interests first and you have military bases all over the world for the sole purpose of furthering your own countries interests. If you don't like it I suggest you write to your congressmen and ask him to take your chips of the table because right now you are a high roller and are very much game.
3. Why do you keep referring to bullies and standing up to bullies? Your powerful country on this planet no one bullies you and no one is bullying you in this instance. What I am talking about ( and many others) is keeping OUR SOLDIERS ( I still have friends in afghan with the British army as we speak) safe. No one is talking about surrendering, no one is talking about giving the enemy anything instead we are suggesting that it is in OUR best interests to allow our military and political personal do their job without the risk of extra pressures/ dangers which would happen if idiots like this pastor are allowed to do what he wants when he wants.
4. We have been taking care of the bad guy for over a decade and the West is winning the fight. Respecting middle eastern culture isn't surrendering its smart business especially when the West buys oil and trades with these countries. Again if you don't care about the middle east then have a word with your government because they care and they have been appeasing them for a very long time.

As soon as 'freedom of speech" comes into play you American turn into emotional wrecks but guess what its a very small world now and you are running the show so get used to it.
 
Ah - now your picture is more clear, Higgins - of the British Armed Services. I wish I noticed that before.

See - I'm Aunt Spiker - Spouse of a US Soldier, and he feels the same way I do. He's not blind or stupid about who is truly responsible for such actions.

You just don't like the dangers associated with being in the service, and you're just going to have to come to terms with that on your own. I don't like the dangers, either, but some things do hold precedence - like common sense.

If you think I'm being rude, there's nothing I can do about that.
 
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Ah - now your picture is more clear, Higgins - of the British Armed Services.

See - I'm Aunt Spiker - Spouse of a US Soldier, and he feels the same way I do. He's not blind or stupid about who is truly responsible for such actions.

You just don't like the dangers associated with being in the service, and you're just going to have to come to terms with that on your own. I don't like the dangers, either, but some things do hold precedence - like common sense.

No I was fine with the dangers that is why I signed up when I was 16. What I didn't like was taking bullets because of bull**** from back home which had nothing to do with my mission and got in the way of the job I was supposed to be doing. Yes Common sense great word common sense, common sense would be not to let a uneducated fool incite hate and endanger countless lives. Glad you and your husband are ok with that though and of course I imagine you will be willing to pick up a rifle and protect those embassy workers who get attacked on their way to work....Thought not.
 
But apparently you are, snowflake.

Calling me a name may seem cute to you, but it certainly didn't assist your post in making any sense. I fail to see where I am threatening retaliation for Americans exercising free speech.

What happened to Paula Deen's rights?

I was unaware the government arrested her and put her on trial for exercising free speech. Sure, people can call other people the N-word... but there are consequences in a free society, and one of those consequences is to lose sponsors who take offense.

Its not the muslims in the US that are the issue

That's true. However, we do not remove constitutional rights for people in the US because someone around the world may get upset and threaten violence. Under your interpretation, free speech would only be a right so long as others aren't angered by it.

I was trying to make this point earlier to to avail. The difference I see with this man exercising his right to free speech with this act is that it is not just him that could potentially suffer the repercussions from any retaliation. We also can be assured that the threats of retaliation are fairly credible. If we could be assured that radicals around the world would look for THIS guy to retaliate against then fine, but we can not make such assurances.

So should we suspend our constitutional rights whenever someone around the world might take offense and retaliate? That kind of fear would keep us from putting Muslim mass murderers like Hassan on trial, because some Muslim group might threaten to kill Americans if we do. You can see how that would snowball: Release everyone from Gitmo in two hours or Americans will die; release convicted Islamists terrorist or Americans will die; drop bombs on Tel Aviv or Americans will die... and on it goes. The constitution, as I've said, is not a suggestion. It protects the rights of all Americans, even those we despise. If we start picking out people we don't want to have free speech because of fear or offense, then none of us will ever have free speech again.

The ACLU defended the right of Nazis to march through a Jewish neighborhood and they were right to do so. Freedom of speech needs to be virtually absolute* or it doesn't exist.

*restrictions on libel and incitement of riots are legit, few others are.

Exactly. I don't understand why that is so difficult for some to comprehend.
 
No I was fine with the dangers that is why I signed up when I was 16. What I didn't like was taking bullets because of bull**** from back home which had nothing to do with my mission and got in the way of the job I was supposed to be doing. Yes Common sense great word common sense, common sense would be not to let a uneducated fool incite hate and endanger countless lives. Glad you and your husband are ok with that though and of course I imagine you will be willing to pick up a rifle and protect those embassy workers who get attacked on their way to work....Thought not.

You can criticize our country, its people and its constitution as much as you want. It's called free speech. All Americans have it, even the evil ones, and all the snark and indignation in the world is not going to change that, or change our constitution. :shrug:

BTW, you aren't the only one who has lost friends and loved ones to these damned wars. It is you who are playing the victim card at this point.
 
You can criticize our country, its people and its constitution as much as you want. It's called free speech. All Americans have it, even the evil ones, and all the snark and indignation in the world is not going to change that, or change our constitution. :shrug:

BTW, you aren't the only one who has lost friends and loved ones to these damned wars. It is you who are playing the victim card at this point.

No victim act from me I'm just telling you how it is. Its easy to sit on a computer and talk about your rights and no backing down etc. But the fact is you are not the one in the firing line, stopping people like this pastor protects Americans worldwide and not just soldiers either.

I'm not even criticising America because from what I see your government agrees with me, protection of US troops, US interests and diplomatic workers trumps any political ideology.
 
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