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US Police arrest Florida pastor

CanadaJohn said:
Absolutely - just as people respect the rights of Muslim clerics who speak in the most vile of terms about Jews, Christians and other "infidels". Usually, the difference is that when Muslim clerics and their followers speak out, most other people simply ignore their ignorance and get on with their lives, however, when someone speaks out in an ignorant way about Muslims, those Muslims like to burn synagogs, churches and other buildings, beat people in the street, kidnap and behead those who spoke the words, etc.
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Are you talking about events in the U.S. or the ME?
 
ChrisL said:
I think the real argument here is people condemning him for the symbolic act of burning a book because they fear retaliation. That's the real interesting story here.
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So the pastor has the freedom of speech to burn books, but we don't have the freedom to criticize him for burning books?
 
lizzie said:
Yes, we know that, and many of us detest it. That doesn't mean that treading on our rights is a good or desirable thing. Why do you think so many of us complain about the PA? We don't blindly accept that anything our government does is a good thing.
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Not blindly no but you bend over and take it like the rest of us.
 
CanadaJohn said:
Only people arrested during OWS protests were those who choose to squat and "occupy" public places for days/weeks/months and police ignored them for as long as possible and then moved in - that's quite a bit different from rounding them up the first minute they did something wrong to thwart their ability to even start to protest.
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You are 100% wrong.

I have already posted a link proving that the police arrested hundreds of people (ie truckloads) who had not committed any crime and they did it to thwart their ability to protest
 
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CanadaJohn said:
Didn't you just finish telling me that geography doesn't matter - now it does?
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So you were referring to the ME? How long do you believe civil unrest has been going on in the ME?
You've given a opening to the question of 'Should we as part of an international community intervene in Syria?'
 
reinoe said:
Was a permit necessary? Is that what the police say?


From what I understand the police arrested him for no disclosed reason and that they would be announcing that reason at a later time. Sounds like they arrested him and will be making up a reason later.
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Meanwhile the hazmat team makes off with the "hazardous substances" and the BBQ grill to an undisclosed location for a campfire & some smores.
 
sangha said:
So the pastor has the freedom of speech to burn books, but we don't have the freedom to criticize him for burning books?
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Is it called freedom when a library removes certain books from their shelves?
 
Higgins86 said:
Not blindly no but you bend over and take it like the rest of us.
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Unfortunately, much of our population has become passive and accepting, and we are going the way of Europe with regard to thinking government is the answer to our problems.
 
lizzie said:
Unfortunately, much of our population has become passive and accepting, and we are going the way of Europe with regard to thinking government is the answer to our problems.
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One of us...one of us. ;)
 
:applaud
CanadaJohn said:
Absolutely - just as people respect the rights of Muslim clerics who speak in the most vile of terms about Jews, Christians and other "infidels". Usually, the difference is that when Muslim clerics and their followers speak out, most other people simply ignore their ignorance and get on with their lives, however, when someone speaks out in an ignorant way about Muslims, those Muslims like to burn synagogs, churches and other buildings, beat people in the street, kidnap and behead those who spoke the words, etc.
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lolabird said:
Apparently your slanted view of freedom includes disrespecting other religions to the point of stirring up hate and division.
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So,you are for shutting down mosques,are you?

I mean, unless you are such a complete hypocrite as to only apply your principle in one direction.
 
lolabird said:
So you were referring to the ME? How long do you believe civil unrest has been going on in the ME?
You've given a opening to the question of 'Should we as part of an international community intervene in Syria?'
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Sorry, this thread is about freedom of speech and a respect for the rights of others. I have no intention of following you as you flit around a dozen different subjects unrelated to this thread.
 
opendebate said:
So if anyone cares to respond feel free. There are limitations to our rights aren't there? That whole "fire in crowded room" thing. If someone has stated that they intend to do harm and you catch them in the act (kerosene soaked books and firearm in hand) it seems like the kind of incident that would limit your rights.

Since the time of ancient republics rights have been understood to have legal limits. The Magna Carta, the English Bill of Rights, and the Massachusetts Body of Liberties all set limits on rights.

Citizens also have the responsibility to exercise their rights within reasonable limits that do not abridge the equal freedom of others.

Bill of Rights Institute: Limits on Rights | Bill of Rights Institute

I am honestly just looking for an intelligent conversation about this not a street fight. I am torn on this issue.
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I would refer you (and anyone else who might have missed it buried behind page one) to this post I provided on the subject.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...e-arrest-florida-pastor-6.html#post1062305979

As I provide legal analysis and state in that post, I believe the symbolic "book burning" is protected Free Speech, and had the municipality merely granted the requested permits there would be no issue today. :)
 
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Captain Adverse said:
I would refer you (and anyone else who might have missed it buried behind page one) to this post I provided on the subject.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...e-arrest-florida-pastor-6.html#post1062305979

As I provide legal analysis and state in that post, I believe the symbolic "book burning" is protected Free Speech, and had the municipality merely granted the requested permits there would be no issue today. :)
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While that was a good post, there would still be an issue today because the pastor broke the law by illegally and dangerously, transporting fuel, openly carrying a firearm, and not having a permit for his trailer.
 
sangha said:
While that was a good post, there would still be an issue today because the pastor broke the law by illegally and dangerously, transporting fuel, openly carrying a firearm, and not having a permit for his trailer.
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Not really, because had the permits been granted Mr. Jones would have no need to "prepare his bonfire" prior to arrival at the "permitted" site. It is clear that he expected to be arrested and so set up his "bonfire" to start as soon as he arrived.

As for the "openly carried firearm?" That is another Constitutional issue I thought had been settled in two recent SCOTUS decisions...and is a topic for a gun control thread. I prefer to limit my comments to the issue at hand, Free Speech.
 
Captain Adverse said:
Not really, because had the permits been granted Mr. Jones would have no need to "prepare his bonfire" prior to arrival at the "permitted" site. It is clear that he expected to be arrested and so set up his "bonfire" to start as soon as he arrived.

As for the "openly carried firearm?" That is another Constitutional issue I thought had been settled in two recent SCOTUS decisions...and is a topic for a gun control thread. I prefer to limit my comments to the issue at hand, Free Speech.
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Speculative. Facts not in evidence
 
sangha said:
Speculative. Facts not in evidence
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Perhaps, but a rational speculation nonetheless; based upon the facts presented in the original and subsequent stories. :)

You opened the door to that speculation by stating the same issues would arise even if the permits had been granted. I cede only the issue about the gun, which may not have been discovered at all if the police had not been laying for the gentleman and seeking to prevent his stated goal of protesting anyway.
 
Captain Adverse said:
Not really, because had the permits been granted Mr. Jones would have no need to "prepare his bonfire" prior to arrival at the "permitted" site. It is clear that he expected to be arrested and so set up his "bonfire" to start as soon as he arrived.

As for the "openly carried firearm?" That is another Constitutional issue I thought had been settled in two recent SCOTUS decisions...and is a topic for a gun control thread. I prefer to limit my comments to the issue at hand, Free Speech.
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lets just hope he did not intend to make a youtube video of him burning the religous books.

can we agree that we don't need the actions of one of our religious fanatics fueling the Islamic fundamentalists hatred
 
Gardener said:
So,you are for shutting down mosques,are you?

I mean, unless you are such a complete hypocrite as to only apply your principle in one direction.
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Are you pulling from your a-- to start and maintain controversy?
Answer your own question.
 
CanadaJohn said:
Sorry, this thread is about freedom of speech and a respect for the rights of others. I have no intention of following you as you flit around a dozen different subjects unrelated to this thread.
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Don't dish it out if you can't take it.
 
Captain Adverse said:
Perhaps, but a rational speculation nonetheless; based upon the facts presented in the original and subsequent stories. :)

You opened the door to that speculation by stating the same issues would arise even if the permits had been granted. I cede only the issue about the gun, which may not have been discovered at all if the police had not been laying for the gentleman and seeking to prevent his stated goal of protesting anyway.
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I did no speculating. I relied on the facts, as reported
 
Unitedwestand13 said:
can we agree that we don't need the actions of one of our religious fanatics fueling the Islamic fundamentalists hatred
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Ok, so let's lay out all the cards on the table.

#1. Those religious fanatics you are so worried about are burning our flag all the time correct?

#2. You think we should be worried about "fueling" the hatred those religious fanatics feel about us correct?

Now, can you point out the problem? Do you think that by not burning those Islamic books that somehow they will magically stop hating us? Or is this just an excuse to try and appease radical Islam. If those "religious fanatics" don't care about burning our flag, why should I give two shakes of a piss care about someone burning their books?

Now, don't get me wrong, I don't think our military members or government members should burn those books. However, we are talking about the private U.S. citizens. They have a right and it is not illegal to do this.
 
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