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Thread: US Police arrest Florida pastor

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    Re: US Police arrest Florida pastor

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Because of what you say, I don't think he should have been prevented from doing this, if that's what the timely arrest turns out to be. But then again, free speech doesn't allow one to yell fire in a crowded theatre. And sense this could have a similar effect, meaning people could be harmed or worse as a result of him exercising his free speech............................??
    1) you should really look at the origins of that phrase and the type of political activity it was aimed at

    2) It modern context "yelling fire in a theater" points to an act of speech that compels [people to act without choice of thought or consideration. This is ebcause in a fire one does not have the option to sit around and debate if a fire is actually occurring, Naturally due to the inherent dangers inaction would represent.

    Clearly burning Korans does not create any such "demand" to action. So it's a horribly faulty comparison

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    Re: US Police arrest Florida pastor

    Quote Originally Posted by mak2 View Post
    He was not arrested for burning anything or any sort of speech. That is spin
    1) people have been raising the point of legitimate concerns from the beginning.

    2) many people, including the OP have applauded this over the issue of speech content

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    Re: US Police arrest Florida pastor

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    1) you should really look at the origins of that phrase and the type of political activity it was aimed at

    2) It modern context "yelling fire in a theater" points to an act of speech that compels [people to act without choice of thought or consideration. This is ebcause in a fire one does not have the option to sit around and debate if a fire is actually occurring. Naturally due to the inherent dangers inaction would represent.

    Clearly burning Korans does not create any such "demand" to action. So it's a horribly faulty comparison
    Sure Dr. Ill agree with you it's not a perfect analogy. Wouldn't want to derail this important topic arguing against you that it is. So, leaving that out of it, this pastor, exercising his free speech could cause harm or death to his fellow Americans and seems the height of irresponsible behaviour, particularly and ESPECIALLY because we are talking about a preacher here.

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    Re: US Police arrest Florida pastor

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Sure Dr. Ill agree with you it's not a perfect analogy. Wouldn't want to derail this important topic arguing against you that it is. So, leaving that out of it, this pastor, exercising his free speech could cause harm or death to his fellow Americans and seems the height of irresponsible behaviour, particularly and ESPECIALLY because we are talking about a preacher here.
    That's like saying a gay couple kissing in public "could cause harm or death to his fellow Americans and seems the height of irresponsible behaviour" because some asshole might act irrationally to it and go kill random people. FYI, the issue here isn't the guy engaging in a completely reasonable form of protest that harms no one

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    Re: US Police arrest Florida pastor

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    No, criticism of a religion is well established to be within first amendment doctrine.




    Yes, because people are able to criticize ideas and ideologies here, and even do and say things that you disagree with.
    No, people are not allowed to incite violence.
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    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
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    Re: US Police arrest Florida pastor

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    That's like saying a gay couple kissing in public "could cause harm or death to his fellow Americans and seems the height of irresponsible behaviour" because some asshole might act irrationally to it and go kill random people. FYI, the issue here isn't the guy engaging in a completely reasonable form of protest that harms no one
    The op seems to indicate relief that this mans irresponsible plans were interrupted. And now, you present a weak analogy.

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    Re: US Police arrest Florida pastor

    Quote Originally Posted by sawdust View Post
    Driving while pulling a BarBQue grill full of kerosene soaked Koran's is not illegal anywhere.
    I'm pretty confident that it's illegal in all 50 states.

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    Re: US Police arrest Florida pastor

    Quote Originally Posted by Higgins86 View Post
    Pastor arrested before he could burn Qurans

    Glad they could stop this dickhead before he cost more life's.
    You are from the UK, and apparently not well-versed in American Constitutional issues. That's okay because many American's are confused about what Constitutional protections they actually have and what rights they deem they can deny fellow citizens.

    One of the seminal events in American Revolutionary history was the "Boston Tea Party," where a bunch of citizens reacting to what they considered unfair taxation dressed up in Halloween fashion like Native Americans, and tossed hundreds of boxes of tea into Boston Harbor. This act led to further repressions and finally culminated in the American Revolution. Yet anyone doing something like that today in protest would be arrested by the local police.

    Prior to the WWI anti-war demonstrations the standard was “bad tendency” i.e. speech could be outlawed if it had a tendency to harm public welfare. However, in 1919 the U.S. Supreme Court ruled unanimously in Schenck v. United States, 249 U.S. 47 (1919), to establish the “clear and present danger” standard.

    "The question in every case is whether the words used are used in such circumstances and are of such a nature as to create a clear and present danger that they will bring about the substantive evils that the United States Congress has a right to prevent. It is a question of proximity and degree."
    That was the standard until 1969, when the U.S. Supreme Court modified the standard to “imminent lawless action” in Brandenburg v. Ohio, 395 U.S. 444 (1969).

    [T]he constitutional guarantees of free speech and free press do not permit a State to forbid or proscribe advocacy of the use of force or of law violation except where such advocacy is directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action and is likely to incite or produce such action.
    This was further clarified in 1973 by SCOTUS in Hess v. Indiana, 414 U.S. 105 (1973) when the Court held that violent speech is protected if it “amounted to nothing more than advocacy of illegal action at some indefinite future time.”

    Finally we have R.A.V. v. City of St. Paul, 505 U.S. 377 (1992) where teens had been charged with burning a cross on the lawn of an African-American family. The Court held that the First Amendment prevents government from punishing speech and expressive conduct because it disapproves of the ideas expressed.

    All of this leads to the issue at hand: is burning a stack of Qurans protected by the First Amendment? IMO yes it is.

    It is irrelevant that some party somewhere overseas might get upset and take some violent action. That is their responsibility, and has nothing to do with restricting free speech.

    It would be a different situation if Mr. Jones had taken his followers to a Mosque, stacked the Quorans in front, lit them on fire and then shouted “Now let’s burn this Mosque to the ground!” He did not do this.

    Instead he petitioned for all necessary permits as required, but was denied for unspecified reasons. He then decided to act anyway. Had he not poured kerosene on the books prior to arrival at the rally site the authorities would have used some other reason to prevent the expression of his free speech, leading to a new round of Court review. This was his likely intent.

    Had the city simply authorized the permits and let the people have their little rally, it would have made the news, created some controversy, and blown over in the USA. If radicals elsewhere (who need no special justification to either hate the USA or act violently) raise hell, who is really at fault? Have they not burned bibles? Burned our flag? Attacked our citizens for their own reasons?

    I do not like Mr. Jones; in fact I hold him in the same contempt I do Fred Phelps and his Westboro Church. But I’ll stand up and fight for their freedom of expression, however much it personally offends me, in order to preserve my own freedom of expression.
    Last edited by Captain Adverse; 09-12-13 at 10:17 AM.
    If I stop responding it doesn't mean I've conceded the point or agree with you. It only means I've made my point and I don't mind you having the last word. Please wait a few minutes before "quoting" me. I often correct errors for a minute or two after I post before the final product is ready.

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    Re: US Police arrest Florida pastor

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    No, people are not allowed to incite violence.
    Yes, people are not allowed to "incite violence", but the standard for "inciting violence" in US law tends to be very limited, especially where speech with political content is concerned.

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    Re: US Police arrest Florida pastor

    Quote Originally Posted by Muhammed View Post
    I'm pretty confident that it's illegal in all 50 states.
    what is found illegal in that activity?
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