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Thread: US Police arrest Florida pastor

  1. #541
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    Re: US Police arrest Florida pastor

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post


    I never said any such thing.
    Sure you did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    If John knew that his actions would lead to violence, then he is responsible for his actions.
    If someone knows their actions will lead to violence (because someone else threatened they would commit violent acts if he did it), then he is responsible.

    Therefore, I should be able to make threats to you in order to coerce you into doing what I want. If you refuse, I will hurt someone and YOU will be responsible.

    Ridiculous. Burning your own property does not make you responsible for deaths by islamists. Now stop backpeddling and just own it.
    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    I've got to say that it is shadenfreudalicious to see the rich and famous fucquewads on the coast suffering from the fires.

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    Re: US Police arrest Florida pastor

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    Sure you did.


    If someone knows their actions will lead to violence (because someone else threatened they would commit violent acts if he did it), then he is responsible.
    Thats what the Brandenburg test says.....

    Brandenburg test | LII / Legal Information Institute

    Standard established in Brandenburg v. Ohio, 395 US 444 (1969), to determine when inflammatory speech intending to advocate illegal action can be restricted. The standard developed determined that speech advocating the use of force or crime could only be proscribed where two conditions were satisfied: (1) the advocacy is “directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action,” and (2) the advocacy is also “likely to incite or produce such action.”


    1) Pastor Jones directed the burning of the Koran knowing it would incite imminent lawless action among Muslims.

    2) Pastor Jones advocacy is highly "likely to incite or produce such action" because it has.



    Therefore, I should be able to make threats to you in order to coerce you into doing what I want. If you refuse, I will hurt someone and YOU will be responsible.
    It's not a hypothetical...it's a documented fact that the actions of Pastor Jones has incited violence. Pastor Jones has even admitted as much.

    Ridiculous. Burning your own property does not make you responsible for deaths by islamists. Now stop backpeddling and just own it.
    This issue is about free speech, not property rights. You might own a Quran but you don't have the right to burn it in a public place without a permit or burn it to incite "mimminent lawless action".

  3. #543
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    Re: US Police arrest Florida pastor

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post


    Thats what the Brandenburg test says.....

    Brandenburg test | LII / Legal Information Institute

    Standard established in Brandenburg v. Ohio, 395 US 444 (1969), to determine when inflammatory speech intending to advocate illegal action can be restricted. The standard developed determined that speech advocating the use of force or crime could only be proscribed where two conditions were satisfied: (1) the advocacy is “directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action,” and (2) the advocacy is also “likely to incite or produce such action.”


    1) Pastor Jones directed the burning of the Koran knowing it would incite imminent lawless action among Muslims.

    2) Pastor Jones advocacy is highly "likely to incite or produce such action" because it has.



    It's not a hypothetical...it's a documented fact that the actions of Pastor Jones has incited violence. Pastor Jones has even admitted as much.

    This issue is about free speech, not property rights. You might own a Quran but you don't have the right to burn it in a public place without a permit or burn it to incite "mimminent lawless action".
    Incorrect. Burning books is not advocating the use of force or crime. Nor is it using force or committing a crime. The Brandenburg test is for things like Charles Manson, where he encouraged people to go out and do harm. It does not apply to 3rd parties getting offended and deciding to do harm.

    Your analysis is extremely lacking.
    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    I've got to say that it is shadenfreudalicious to see the rich and famous fucquewads on the coast suffering from the fires.

  4. #544
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    Re: US Police arrest Florida pastor

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    Incorrect. Burning books is not advocating the use of force or crime. Nor is it using force or committing a crime. The Brandenburg test is for things like Charles Manson, where he encouraged people to go out and do harm. It does not apply to 3rd parties getting offended and deciding to do harm.

    Your analysis is extremely lacking.
    I doubt it will make it to the SCOTUS, so we'll probably never really know who is right. But he'll try it again next year and then we can have this discussion all over again. Until then.....maybe he'll find a new calling.

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    Re: US Police arrest Florida pastor

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    I doubt it will make it to the SCOTUS, so we'll probably never really know who is right. But he'll try it again next year and then we can have this discussion all over again. Until then.....maybe he'll find a new calling.
    or you could just cite similar cases

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    Re: US Police arrest Florida pastor

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    or you could just cite similar cases
    Every first amendment case is unique. But perhaps the closet would be Brandenburg v Ohio


    Sooner or later Pastor Jone's actions and/or words will come back to bite him.

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    Re: US Police arrest Florida pastor

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Every first amendment case is unique. But perhaps the closet would be Brandenburg v Ohio


    Sooner or later Pastor Jone's actions and/or words will come back to bite him.
    every case is unique, but that doesn't change the fact you should be able to cite actual case law if it's clearly applied like you claim. Unfortunately for you the "immanent harm standard" is applied with a very restricted scope. One such case I recall concerned a guy who was the leader of a Neo-nazi organization who advocated the killing of minorities to his armed followers

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    Re: US Police arrest Florida pastor

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    every case is unique, but that doesn't change the fact you should be able to cite actual case law if it's clearly applied like you claim. Unfortunately for you the "immanent harm standard" is applied with a very restricted scope. One such case I recall concerned a guy who was the leader of a Neo-nazi organization who advocated the killing of minorities to his armed followers
    Can you cite the name of the "one such case" you are referring to?

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