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Thread: US Police arrest Florida pastor

  1. #511
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    Re: US Police arrest Florida pastor

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    Peter, being that I specifically cited the use and strict application of rules that are not normally applied, how would this address what I wrote?
    You may be right, maybe sometimes these permits will be allowed even if they had been requested less than 2 weeks before the date of that event. But if little Jimmy wants to have a little kids party in the park and his parents request this 11 days before the party was supposed to take place, I can imagine that the city/parks service would allow that to take place. But I would not know this and this will still not change the rules of the permit request.

    But this was not a little kids party, this was a protest. A protest in which someone wanted to burn 2998 books, this suddenly comes in a whole different category of "events". The police, fire department, health department, etc. were all involved in this event and in no way would the city/parks authority would be able to review all the issues that arose from the burning of 2998 books that were doused in a flammable liquid. Was the site he wanted to do this safe enough to make sure that no fires would break out in the park. Did the fire department have enough capacity to provide a safe burn, etc. etc.

    This was not a normal application and if such a difficult permit is being applied for the city/parks authority must have enough time to make an informed and safe decision and for that reason there is the 2 week rule. Jones and his organization failed to comply with this rule and as their application was far from straightforward the city denied his request for that permit.
    Former military man (and now babysitter of Donald Trump) John Kelly, is a big loud lying empty barrel!

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    Re: US Police arrest Florida pastor

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter King View Post
    You may be right, maybe sometimes these permits will be allowed even if they had been requested less than 2 weeks before the date of that event. But if little Jimmy wants to have a little kids party in the park and his parents request this 11 days before the party was supposed to take place, I can imagine that the city/parks service would allow that to take place. But I would not know this and this will still not change the rules of the permit request.
    1) Exactly, you have no idea how they condusct day to day business

    2) No, if they generally do not adhere to the rule, but specifically apply it such a case as the above, it would be an infringement on his constitutional rights


    But this was not a little kids party, this was a protest. A protest in which someone wanted to burn 2998 books, this suddenly comes in a whole different category of "events".
    No, it doesn't make a difference. They need to treat all applicants on an equal basis, regardless of politics, race, and religion.


    This was not a normal application and if such a difficult permit is being applied for the city/parks authority must have enough time to make an informed and safe decision and for that reason there is the 2 week rule. Jones and his organization failed to comply with this rule and as their application was far from straightforward the city denied his request for that permit.
    Again, this is information you are simply not privy too. You have no idea if similar events were held in the past (say a bonfire), how such applications were handled, and under what time frame

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    Re: US Police arrest Florida pastor

    Quote Originally Posted by lolabird View Post
    I think the Civil Rights Act was a good thing.
    That has nothing to do with the government limiting rights.

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    Re: US Police arrest Florida pastor





    What I find curious is that a lot of people think this is a first amendment issue without there being any evidence for it.

    They blame the city for not giving a permit, even though we know that Terry Jones only asked for a permit less than 2 weeks until the protest was planned. The city indicates the request must be done 2 weeks in advance, not an insanely long amount of time to make a decision on such a difficult issue. The city is being blamed for not breaking it's own rules about permit requests rather than blaming Jones for not requesting it in time.

    Terry Jones then ignores the fact that he does not have a permit for a protest in a public park. He loads all 2998 qur'ans, ignoring the 373 foreign individuals who died that day (even though most of them would have worked in the USA when they were murdered), into a smoker. Douses these books with kerosene, creating a driving fire-bomb. He then dragged this possible explosive device to the intended burning side and then get's arrested for driving that fire-hazard on the open road and who is getting blamed for his lack of common sense? Well, Obama, liberals, people who do not attack muslims, democrats and all people who think what Terry Jones did was something that normal people would get arrested for 7 days of the week.

    But when Mr. Jones does something that idiotic and dangerous, endangering people all over Polk county, the only person that is to blame for that is Terry Jones himself.

    If he had asked for the permit, sued the city if he would have been denied (just for the moment assuming he indeed fulfilled all the rules and regulations for such a permit) if they had denied his first amendment rights, had transported his books in a safe and responsible way, then nobody would have been able to arrest him or deny him his protest. His big moment in the media spotlight because that is all I think he really cares about.

    But no, he broke the law for trying to enter a public park for a protest he did not have a permit for (his own fault) and then transporting a huge number of flammable books over the public roads (for which he was quite rightly arrested).

    The issue is not was the government doing something wrong because there is no evidence to suggest that, other than conservatives and libertarians complaining his first amendment rights have been violated, the issue is that Terry Jones did do something wrong and because of that the man is in trouble with authorities.

    Now if there later is evidence that the city did things wrong they must be addressed and the city must be punished or exposed for their wrongdoings. But that is not the issue as of yet.

    The basic principle of law is that it is innocent until proven otherwise, Terry Jones was arrested and is a suspect of having done something wrong. He is not yet guilty of this, that will have to be decided in a court of law. But while the "Terry Jones has his first amendment rights violated" crowd proclaims Jones innocent (as he according to the legal principles is), there are a lot of them that do not have this "innocent until proven otherwise" mentality when it comes to the Polk county, the sheriff or the government. They have been found guilty until they can prove without a shadow of a doubt that they are innocent.

    And that is not fair. Terry Jones has until now only been arrested and his guilt or innocence will be decided in court. That same principle should go for Polk county, the sheriff and the government. They too must be seen as innocent until proven guilty.



    Former military man (and now babysitter of Donald Trump) John Kelly, is a big loud lying empty barrel!

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    Re: US Police arrest Florida pastor

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter King View Post
    And that is not fair. Terry Jones has until now only been arrested and his guilt or innocence will be decided in court. That same principle should go for Polk county, the sheriff and the government. They too must be seen as innocent until proven guilty.
    I never claimed they did anything wrong. What I did was point out that your dependence on the denied permit and arrest does not indicate that there was no overreach here, like you keep asserting

    It's a simple distinction

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    Re: US Police arrest Florida pastor

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    That has nothing to do with the government limiting rights.
    Do you ever tire of embarrassing yourself?

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    Re: US Police arrest Florida pastor

    Quote Originally Posted by Higgins86 View Post
    I'm glad that an idiot wasn't allowed to burn thousands of religious texts and by doing so endanger nato soldiers in Afghan. Yes I'm very glad
    So, I can have you arrested for being glad he got arrested?
    If you strike me down, I'll become more powerful than you could possibly imagine.

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    Re: US Police arrest Florida pastor

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter King View Post




    ...stuff...


    I agree with just about everything you've said. Part of the initial resistance to Jones being arrested was that the police arrested Jones and then publicly stated that the reasons why would be announced at a later time. Now arresting someone and then saying you would explain why looks highly suspicious, especially in light of what Jones was trying to do.

    The whole slew of idiotic actions Jones allegedly took came later. Yes Jones was very dumb and if he had acted appropriately then we'd be having a different discussion.

    However there are some people claiming that Jones should have been arrested just because of the action he was going to take, i.e. burning 2998 Korans. On that point I disagree. A good point all around Peter King.

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    Re: US Police arrest Florida pastor

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter King View Post
    I was agreeing with you that dirty politics could infringe on people's legal right to protest. But since I have been looking into it a bit more, that is not the case here. Pastor Jones just did not follow the rules for using a public park. .....
    You may be right or or you may be wrong. None of us knows for sure.

    But.....

    One can not really tell by looking at the laws, news stories and the results of a public process. Politicans routinely lie and make decisions behind closed doors for reasons hidden from the public. They then take legal actions in public using legitimate grounds for their decisions. This is how they covertly violate our constitution's freedom of expression guarantees (or any other laws that they want to work around] while appearing to do nothing illegal. When this happens, it usually takes a lawsuit and a discovery process to uncover the truth.

    When it is a controversial person with an extremely unpopular message with potentially profound consequences, it is most reasonable to expect and assume that the government will try to censor that person*. That is why the courts use a "strict scrutiny" and "compelling governmental interest" test for analyzing these type of cases and laws restricting freedom of expression.

    *the fact that many posters on this thread believe that he should be censored is evidence of it being probable.
    Last edited by Hard Truth; 09-15-13 at 06:30 PM.

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    Re: US Police arrest Florida pastor

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisher View Post
    Political statements are often offensive--a tactic you don't mind using--and burning religious texts can be an offensive political statement. Here is a clue--Jews often bury their old books because they believe that destroying printed documents referring to God as a Sacrilege.
    A tactic you don't mind using, either.

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