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Thread: US Police arrest Florida pastor

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    Re: US Police arrest Florida pastor

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    Well, there are a number of things here that could still make it amount to an arrest, due to unconstitutional application of Govt force. Some possibilities:

    1) The material was being transported in the above manner to help secure the act in the face of an unjustified denial of a permit and fear of govt intervention

    2) He was specifically targeted due to his association with the protest (that it wasn't a random traffic stop)

    But again, pointing to potential abuses, and why it shouldn't be simply assumed everything was kosher is not the same as stating such things did happen. It's just in high profile cases, where govt officials have a vested interest in curtailing rights, we should be skeptical that such just happened to occur out of pure chance
    The Polk City council did not issue the permit to pastor Terry Jones because he did not apply in a timely fashion. Jones wanted to use a public park and if someone wants to do that he/she has to apply for this at least 2 weeks before the event is planned and Jones and his organization Stand Up America Now did not do so. They weren't denied because Polk County did not approve of the protest because of the nature of that protest but the permit was refused because the pastor was too late in putting in the request for the use of the public park.
    Former military man (and now babysitter of Donald Trump) John Kelly, is a big loud lying empty barrel!

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    Re: US Police arrest Florida pastor

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter King View Post
    The Polk City council did not issue the permit to pastor Terry Jones because he did not apply in a timely fashion. Jones wanted to use a public park and if someone wants to do that he/she has to apply for this at least 2 weeks before the event is planned and Jones and his organization Stand Up America Now did not do so. They weren't denied because Polk County did not approve of the protest because of the nature of that protest but the permit was refused because the pastor was too late in putting in the request for the use of the public park.
    Excuses, excuses, excuses...

    Jones could have applied 6 months in advance, in triplicate and it would have been denied.

    I still can't stop laughing about the, "illegal transportation of fuel", charge. I haul hazmat for a living. I would LOVE to see the text of the law that he supposedly violated.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: US Police arrest Florida pastor

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter King View Post
    The Polk City council did not issue the permit to pastor Terry Jones because he did not apply in a timely fashion.
    Peter, yes, I am aware of that. But I fail to see how that would address what I wrote.

    Jones wanted to use a public park and if someone wants to do that he/she has to apply for this at least 2 weeks before the event is planned and Jones and his organization Stand Up America Now did not do so.
    Peter, I am sure you're not familiar with the day to day permitting procedure for this county or how closely the office adheres to these rules in more common situations. And as already stated, one of the common means to try to skirt around constitutional protections is an introduction of overly zealous adherence to rules, regulations, and laws that are not normally applied or exist nowhere else besides on the books.

    They weren't denied because Polk County did not approve of the protest because of the nature of that protest but the permit was refused because the pastor was too late in putting in the request for the use of the public park.
    Peter, you simply do not have the information available to know this

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    Re: US Police arrest Florida pastor

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    1) it is a peaceful protest

    2) Yes, I fully understand that having a large open fire creates circumstances that are different than a general gathering. I never denied this and am unsure how it addresses what I wrote
    I was agreeing with you that dirty politics could infringe on people's legal right to protest. But since I have been looking into it a bit more, that is not the case here. Pastor Jones just did not follow the rules for using a public park. He needed to apply for using it on 9/11 at least 2 weeks before that date. The pastor and his organization did not do that and for that reason a permit was denied.

    All of that point to extreme stupidity on the part of Jones. He should have applied earlier and then maybe he would have been allowed to have his protest. But I am afraid he might still have been arrested if he was transporting the books in the exact same manner as he was doing now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    Yes, Peter, but I never claimed otherwise ...
    And I did not claim that you have claimed otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    Peter, you seem to have an extremely simplistic view of american politics: we have two major political parties in this country, which people of varying political views and backgrounds align with. So someone simply being a republican, or democrat, does not determine where they would stand on this issue
    It is not simplistic IMHO when one looks at State and National levels. Sure, in cities/small counties a lot of these kinds of things might work a lot different than on state and national levels, but IMHO, when even the appointment of a sheriff is a political election, it seems impossible to keep party politics out of that completely. But I do agree with you that local politics are not that strictly partisan. For example, 1 of the commissioners is registered as a democrat but still ran in the election as a republican so it might be a bit fluent in local politics.
    Former military man (and now babysitter of Donald Trump) John Kelly, is a big loud lying empty barrel!

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    Re: US Police arrest Florida pastor

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Excuses, excuses, excuses...

    Jones could have applied 6 months in advance, in triplicate and it would have been denied.

    I still can't stop laughing about the, "illegal transportation of fuel", charge. I haul hazmat for a living. I would LOVE to see the text of the law that he supposedly violated.
    316.80 Unlawful conveyance of fuel; obtaining fuel fraudulently.
    (1) It is unlawful for any person to maintain, or possess any conveyance or vehicle that is equipped with, fuel tanks, bladders, drums, or other containers that do not conform to 49 C.F.R. or have not been approved by the United States Department of Transportation for the purpose of hauling, transporting, or conveying motor or diesel fuel over any public highway. Any person who violates any provision of this subsection commits a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084, and, in addition, is subject to the revocation of driver license privileges as provided in s. 322.26.
    (2) Any person who violates subsection (1) commits a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084, if he or she has attempted to or has fraudulently obtained motor or diesel fuel by:
    (a) Presenting a credit card or a credit card account number in violation of ss. 817.57-817.685;
    (b) Using unauthorized access to any computer network in violation of s. 815.06; or
    (c) Using a fraudulently scanned or lost or stolen payment access device, whether credit card or contactless device.
    (3) All conveyances or vehicles, fuel tanks, related fuel, and other equipment described in subsection (1) shall be subject to seizure and forfeiture as provided by the Florida Contraband Forfeiture Act.
    (4) The law enforcement agency that seizes the motor or diesel fuel under this section shall remove and reclaim, recycle, or dispose of all associated motor or diesel fuel as soon as practicable in a safe and proper manner from the illegal containers.
    (5) Upon conviction of the person arrested for the violation of any of the provisions of this section, the judge shall issue an order adjudging and declaring that all fuel tanks and other equipment used in violation of this section shall be forfeited and directing their destruction, with the exception of the conveyance or vehicle.
    (6) Any person convicted of a violation of this section shall be responsible for:
    (a) All reasonable costs incurred by the investigating law enforcement agency, including costs for the towing and storage of the conveyance or vehicle, the removal and disposal of the motor or diesel fuel, and the storage and destruction of all fuel tanks and other equipment described and used in violation of subsection (1); and
    (b) Payment for the fuel to the party from whom any associated motor or diesel fuel was fraudulently obtained.
    (7) This section does not apply to containers of 8 gallons or less.

    Statutes & Constitution :View Statutes : Online Sunshine

    Here is that law.

    And you stating that he could have applied 6 months in advance and would have been denied is nothing more than opinion, an opinion that will never be proved or disproved because he did not apply 6 months in advance. He applied too late (less than 2 weeks before the protest was due to take place) and thus he was denied a permit.

    You cannot complain that you did not get a permit if you (Terry Jones) did not comply with the minimal rules of requesting a permit (and the minimal rule IMHO is applying at least 2 weeks before the event if you know, or should know, that you needed to apply for that permit at least 2 weeks before).

    The city cannot be blamed for Jones failure to apply in time, that is all down to Jones and his organization. And you may be right, it could still have been refused due to legal or illegal reasons but the city was not in a position to approve it because it was not applied in time.

    And you say you have been in Hazmat. I am a trained logistical clerk and a significant part of my education was the transportation of hazardous materials and I am pretty sure that hauling 2998 kerosine drenched qur'ans in a barbeque smoker does not comply with hazmat transportation rules and regulations.
    Former military man (and now babysitter of Donald Trump) John Kelly, is a big loud lying empty barrel!

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    Re: US Police arrest Florida pastor

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter King View Post
    316.80 Unlawful conveyance of fuel; obtaining fuel fraudulently.—
    (1) It is unlawful for any person to maintain, or possess any conveyance or vehicle that is equipped with, fuel tanks, bladders, drums, or other containers that do not conform to 49 C.F.R. or have not been approved by the United States Department of Transportation for the purpose of hauling, transporting, or conveying motor or diesel fuel over any public highway. Any person who violates any provision of this subsection commits a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084, and, in addition, is subject to the revocation of driver license privileges as provided in s. 322.26.
    (2) Any person who violates subsection (1) commits a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084, if he or she has attempted to or has fraudulently obtained motor or diesel fuel by:
    (a) Presenting a credit card or a credit card account number in violation of ss. 817.57-817.685;
    (b) Using unauthorized access to any computer network in violation of s. 815.06; or
    (c) Using a fraudulently scanned or lost or stolen payment access device, whether credit card or contactless device.
    (3) All conveyances or vehicles, fuel tanks, related fuel, and other equipment described in subsection (1) shall be subject to seizure and forfeiture as provided by the Florida Contraband Forfeiture Act.
    (4) The law enforcement agency that seizes the motor or diesel fuel under this section shall remove and reclaim, recycle, or dispose of all associated motor or diesel fuel as soon as practicable in a safe and proper manner from the illegal containers.
    (5) Upon conviction of the person arrested for the violation of any of the provisions of this section, the judge shall issue an order adjudging and declaring that all fuel tanks and other equipment used in violation of this section shall be forfeited and directing their destruction, with the exception of the conveyance or vehicle.
    (6) Any person convicted of a violation of this section shall be responsible for:
    (a) All reasonable costs incurred by the investigating law enforcement agency, including costs for the towing and storage of the conveyance or vehicle, the removal and disposal of the motor or diesel fuel, and the storage and destruction of all fuel tanks and other equipment described and used in violation of subsection (1); and
    (b) Payment for the fuel to the party from whom any associated motor or diesel fuel was fraudulently obtained.
    (7) This section does not apply to containers of 8 gallons or less.

    Statutes & Constitution :View Statutes : Online Sunshine

    Here is that law.

    And you stating that he could have applied 6 months in advance and would have been denied is nothing more than opinion, an opinion that will never be proved or disproved because he did not apply 6 months in advance. He applied too late (less than 2 weeks before the protest was due to take place) and thus he was denied a permit.

    You cannot complain that you did not get a permit if you (Terry Jones) did not comply with the minimal rules of requesting a permit (and the minimal rule IMHO is applying at least 2 weeks before the event if you know, or should know, that you needed to apply for that permit at least 2 weeks before).

    The city cannot be blamed for Jones failure to apply in time, that is all down to Jones and his organization. And you may be right, it could still have been refused due to legal or illegal reasons but the city was not in a position to approve it because it was not applied in time.

    And you say you have been in Hazmat. I am a trained logistical clerk and a significant part of my education was the transportation of hazardous materials and I am pretty sure that hauling 2998 kerosine drenched qur'ans in a barbeque smoker does not comply with hazmat transportation rules and regulations.
    It would take a far out interpretation of the law, to reach the conclusion that hauling a load of kerosene soaked books is a violation of this law, the way it reads.

    As I pointed out earlier, it would no different than hauling a few bags of accelerant soaked charcoal. A product that doesn't have a UN number, by the way. Without a UN number, a product is non-reportable, which means it doesn't fall under Federal hazmat regulations. Can you provide me with the UN number for kerosene soaked books?
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: US Police arrest Florida pastor

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    Peter, I am sure you're not familiar with the day to day permitting procedure for this county or how closely the office adheres to these rules in more common situations. And as already stated, one of the common means to try to skirt around constitutional protections is an introduction of overly zealous adherence to rules, regulations, and laws that are not normally applied or exist nowhere else besides on the books.

    Peter, you simply do not have the information available to know this
    I do have that information and I may not be familiar with the day to day permitting procedures of that county but I am pretty sure the county itself is pretty much well aware of that and they wrote this:


    Polk County Denies Facility Use Agreement Application From Stand Up America Now
    Posted: Wednesday, September 11, 2013

    Bartow, Fla. (September 10, 2013) — Polk County Board of County Commissioners denied Stand Up America Now and Dr. Terry Jones’ request to use Loyce E. Harpe Park on September 11, 2013.

    In letters sent via email to Stephanie Sapp, representing Stand Up America Now and Jones, the county cited lack of time to adequately review their application, as well as other issues. The county’s policy states that organizations wishing to host events of size in Polk County parks need to contact the Parks and Recreation Section of the Parks and Natural Resources Division at least two week prior to their proposed date.

    “The short time period that the county had to review the application made it impossible to work through all of the issues, most importantly public safety precautions,” said Mianne Nelson, Communications Director.


    News Release Details
    Former military man (and now babysitter of Donald Trump) John Kelly, is a big loud lying empty barrel!

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    Re: US Police arrest Florida pastor

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter King View Post
    I was agreeing with you that dirty politics could infringe on people's legal right to protest. But since I have been looking into it a bit more, that is not the case here. Pastor Jones just did not follow the rules for using a public park. He needed to apply for using it on 9/11 at least 2 weeks before that date. The pastor and his organization did not do that and for that reason a permit was denied.
    As before there seems to be some basic point you are failing to understand and I really don't have the interest in covering the same thing over and over again


    It is not simplistic IMHO when one looks at State and National levels. Sure, in cities/small counties a lot of these kinds of things might work a lot different than on state and national levels, but IMHO, when even the appointment of a sheriff is a political election, it seems impossible to keep party politics out of that completely. But I do agree with you that local politics are not that strictly partisan. For example, 1 of the commissioners is registered as a democrat but still ran in the election as a republican so it might be a bit fluent in local politics.
    Peter, even on the national level things are not so clear cut. Anyone with a working knowledge of american politics knows this

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    Re: US Police arrest Florida pastor

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter King View Post
    I do have that information and I may not be familiar with the day to day permitting procedures of that county but I am pretty sure the county itself is pretty much well aware of that and they wrote this
    Peter, being that I specifically cited the use and strict application of rules that are not normally applied, how would this address what I wrote?

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    Re: US Police arrest Florida pastor

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    It would take a far out interpretation of the law, to reach the conclusion that hauling a load of kerosene soaked books is a violation of this law, the way it reads.

    As I pointed out earlier, it would no different than hauling a few bags of accelerant soaked charcoal. A product that doesn't have a UN number, by the way. Without a UN number, a product is non-reportable, which means it doesn't fall under Federal hazmat regulations. Can you provide me with the UN number for kerosene soaked books?
    I doubt a smoker falls under a "container" that applies with the federal transport code for transporting kerosene and I would assume that kerosene drenched books with all the vapors coming off it do not transport well in a smoker where these vapors can escape quite easily.

    As a hazmat transporter, would you transport fuel drenched materials that were highly flammable due to escaping vapors in a barbeque smoker? I would not and I think most hazardous material transporters would never transport something in such an unsafe manner.
    Former military man (and now babysitter of Donald Trump) John Kelly, is a big loud lying empty barrel!

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