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Thread: US Police arrest Florida pastor

  1. #251
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    Re: US Police arrest Florida pastor

    Quote Originally Posted by notquiteright View Post
    But I have ZERO tolerance for someone desecrating other people's religious objects breaking the law while doing so.
    Other peoples religious objects? As far as I am aware, they were purchased by him, and am pretty sure someone feeling something is sacred does not dictate what I can do with it.

    Are you against flag burning?

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    Re: US Police arrest Florida pastor

    He has the perfect right to burn whatever religious materials he owns. But when one exercises a right in such a way they know folks are going to pissed off about, common sense dictates they should dot their Is and cross their Ts in a legal sense when doing so. Because any reasonable man will know the PTB will be gunning for you, looking to see if there's another avenue to shut you down.

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    Re: US Police arrest Florida pastor

    I think his motivations are irrelevant to the essential issue,
    I didn't disagree with you that what his motivations are are irrelevant, we agree on that point.

    since all people who protest are seeking to be seen and heard. As I stated in that analysis one's freedom of expression should not be limited simply because someone else might get angry and react with violence. The fact that they might should not be a deterrent, because then THEY control what is and is not Free Speech simply by threat and violence.
    And I understand your point regarding protecting even the idiots rights as we would our own quite honestly I generally fall on the side of protecting everyone's right to free speech and expression (even when I loathe what they have to say) This just seems different to me because of the nature of the threats or risks he is making the choice to subject others to. In this instance he is endangering more than just himself with the threat of retaliation. That fact gives me pause.

    we must be careful on THAT date NOT to further offend THEM? If you accept this limitation then they now control how we can demonstrate on the date of OUR national tragedy
    I'm playing devils advocate here because I am undecided on this issue. Sometimes though don't we have a greater obligation to protect innocent lives? I wonder if the integrity of that freedom would not be affected by limiting this one mans actions because of the nature of the threats it imposes. Like searches at the airport.
    "Judge a man by his questions rather than his answers" - Voltaire
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  4. #254
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    Re: US Police arrest Florida pastor

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    I read into this thread, and just don't agree with your view.

    It wouldn't have been *his fault* if *they responded* negatively. . . it would have been *their fault* for being total freaking idiots and willing to kill each other over what someone does with a freaking book.

    They want to flip out and not care, cause a riot and kill each other - that's their ridiculous problem.

    They are responsible for their own actions.

    Hold the people who do the killing at fault for THEIR OWN emotions and out of control actions. Every time they do it 'in the name of their belief' they give people another legitimate reason to oppose their 'faith' - and that's their own damned fault, their own damned choice.

    They're throwing them selves on the ground and demanding all sorts of things be done - and you're just wanting the entire world to give in, do whatever it takes to appease the bully.

    Do you honestly think the bully is going to stop being the bully if we give them everything they want? WWII - the Bully was Germany, and the appeasement didn't end well.
    again its fine for you to take this is moral high ground but you are not the one who will be put in harms way when the Islamic world reacts to events like this. Its not even a case of being "bullied" its just common sense.
    ‘This is not peace, it is an armistice for 20 years.’ (Ferdinand Foch. After the Treaty of Versailles, 1919).

  5. #255
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    Re: US Police arrest Florida pastor

    Quote Originally Posted by opendebate View Post
    This just seems different to me because of the nature of the threats or risks he is making the choice to subject others to. In this instance he is endangering more than just himself with the threat of retaliation. That fact gives me pause.

    I'm playing devils advocate here because I am undecided on this issue. Sometimes though don't we have a greater obligation to protect innocent lives? I wonder if the integrity of that freedom would not be affected by limiting this one mans actions because of the nature of the threats it imposes. Like searches at the airport.
    I see. Well the problem as I see it is that the people who "react" to his protest method are wholly and completely responsible for their action. They chose to act in such a manner and they could very well choose NOT to act in such a manner. Simply because some are likely to react as expected is no justification for curbing freedom of expresssion.

    Once they see that the response to their action is represssion of the very freedoms they despise and hope to eliminate, what's to stop them from reacting violently to ANYTHING they see in our society that they oppose? Do we begin to curb more and more liberty out of fear of negative harms other's might afflict us with? If we start doing that...THEY WIN! Actually, we lose...everything we represent.
    If I stop responding it doesn't mean I've conceded the point or agree with you. It only means I've made my point and I don't mind you having the last word. Please wait a few minutes before "quoting" me. I often correct errors for a minute or two after I post before the final product is ready.

  6. #256
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    Re: US Police arrest Florida pastor

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    Of course you have the right to criticize, and I have the right to ask why you are criticizing. Is it the equivalent when people burn Bibles or flags? Do you think those forms of symbolic expression should be outlawed?
    I am criticizing because the man is a hateful douchebag who uses the death of americans to endanger the lives of more americans.

    And yes, it is the legal equivalent. Neither should be outlawed unless they pose a threat of imminent harm. However, this asshole wasn't prevented from expressing himself.
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  7. #257
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    Re: US Police arrest Florida pastor

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    .

    .
    I see. Well the problem as I see it is that the people who "react" to his protest method are wholly and completely responsible for their action
    What if we can not access those people to hold them accountable.

    Once they see that the response to their action is represssion of the very freedoms they despise and hope to eliminate, what's to stop them from reacting violently to ANYTHING they see in our society that they oppose? Do we begin to curb more and more liberty out of fear of negative harms other's might afflict us with? If we start doing that...THEY WIN! Actually, we lose...everything we represent
    It appears you are arguing with the slippery slope fallacy here. Let me know if I am misunderstanding you. I really do not see that as a real threat, how real is the threat of extreme limitations on our freedom of speech. The threat of violent retaliation against innocent people seems more real and more dangerous. If we could have some guarantee that he would be the only person any retaliation was directed at I would feel more comfortable saying go ahead and say any stupid stuff you want. But since it is not the case. Also, I don't see Americans surrendering any great depth of their freedoms any time soon. It seems similar to me to arguing that is SSM is allowed people will want to marry animals etc. Ain't gonna happen.

    Neither do I believe that they "despise our freedoms" I am leaning towards that being a slogan and not what is actually motivating violent acts against the US
    "Judge a man by his questions rather than his answers" - Voltaire
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    Re: US Police arrest Florida pastor

    Quote Originally Posted by Gardener View Post
    So, you opt for complete hypocrisy. Duly noted.

    You favor eliminating free speech when it is one crazy Christian hating on Muslims, but see no problem with countless Muslims hating on Jews or Christians.
    You're out there, aren't you?

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    Re: US Police arrest Florida pastor

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    I am criticizing because the man is a hateful douchebag who uses the death of americans to endanger the lives of more americans.

    And yes, it is the legal equivalent. Neither should be outlawed unless they pose a threat of imminent harm. However, this asshole wasn't prevented from expressing himself.
    No, the people who would kill others because of this kind of thing are the REAL douchebags.

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    Re: US Police arrest Florida pastor

    I support the right of people to safely burn qurans, bibles or flags as part of a protest. It is first amendment protected activity.

    However, I don't support the hateful sentiment, I think that he's a jerk, and I am concerned about the repercussions.

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