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Thread: Conn. lawmakers consider e-cigarette ban

  1. #31
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    Re: Conn. lawmakers consider e-cigarette ban

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    Why is that exactly? If 70% are non-smokers, what is the harm in permitting some smoking allowed establishments to exist? It seems that you wish to say if even one person objects to smoking allwed that the law should bend to their wishes.
    The problem is that the exception then becomes the rule as I'll discuss below. Besides which it is not "one person," since as you already admit it is a MAJORITY of persons many of whom have gotten fed up with smoker's inconsiderate ways.

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    If non-smoking establishments are such a good idea than why did so few exist before the gov't mandate?
    There are a lot of "bad ideas" maintained because they are profitable. We've both pointed out many such in other issue threads

    As previously explained, most public establishments (bar, clubs, restaurants) are all about food and drink profit. Smokers buy more liquid refreshment, my dad taught me that when he owed a bar. Therefore, looking at things from a "purely profit motive," every establishment that makes a profit from alcohol and drink sales (soda, bottled water, coffee, etc.) would cater to the needs of the minority knowing that their competition would be doing the exact same thing. After all, if there are few alternative choices even non-smokers will come and endure the hardships imposed by smokers in order to dance, eat, drink, etc.

    No one sees immediate effects of smoking, it takes time for the harms to reveal themselves. Yet purely to support your own habit you would expose pregnant women, children, and other adults to your brand of poison. Beyond that, I can't tell you how many times I've been burned, or my had clothing destroyed by some a-hole smoker back when smoking was legal in clubs and restaurants. Somehow an insincere "sorry" just didn't cut it. Beyond THAT, how many fires have been caused by smokers in various business establishments leading to how many lives lost and burn victims?

    Sorry, your right to smoke poses both health and safety hazards the rest of us don't need to face. For the third and final time, your MINOR inconvenience does not trump the dangers smoking poses to the rest of us. Feel free to smoke, just make sure its in a safe location that does not endanger the rest of us.
    Last edited by Captain Adverse; 09-10-13 at 12:14 PM.
    If I stop responding it doesn't mean I've conceded the point or agree with you. It only means I've made my point and I don't mind you having the last word. Please wait a few minutes before "quoting" me. I often correct errors for a minute or two after I post before the final product is ready.

  2. #32
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    Re: Conn. lawmakers consider e-cigarette ban

    Quote Originally Posted by DVSentinel View Post
    How much water is in gasoline? It also puts off water vapor.

    The study you posted about metals tested one brand. Ok, so it was an unethical brand perhaps, but then we don't even know which brand it was. Also, a study based upon a single brand does not tell the story for a whole industry. Perhaps E-cigs are mostly made in China, cannot confirm or deny that, but a large number of Vap products are also made in the US.

    I can tell you the design shown is nothing like the design of the cartimizers used with Vap products. Vapor is different from E-Cigs in that E-Cigs come prepackaged and you just change out the little tip that contains the nicotine/flavor vs Vaping where you buy the juice and refill.

    Show a broader study of the harmful affects caused by "secondhand" vapor, then you might start actually having a point.
    Dude, you don't get it.

    All these atomizers are made in the SAME place.

    And cartomizers are even worse offenders. They also burn away the polyfill, which you then inhale, in addition to the shoddy, degrading metals in the heating coil. You can confirm this one for yourself. Just open up one of your own cartomizers that you've used.

    The threshold of evidence for people who simply don't want to see is always just one step higher than the threshold of evidence that currently exists. I am not going to trouble myself with that willfully ignorant mindset. I just hope you luck.

  3. #33
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    Re: Conn. lawmakers consider e-cigarette ban

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    Dude, you don't get it.

    All these atomizers are made in the SAME place.

    And cartomizers are even worse offenders. They also burn away the polyfill, which you then inhale, in addition to the shoddy, degrading metals in the heating coil. You can confirm this one for yourself. Just open up one of your own cartomizers that you've used.

    The threshold of evidence for people who simply don't want to see is always just one step higher than the threshold of evidence that currently exists. I am not going to trouble myself with that willfully ignorant mindset. I just hope you luck.
    Dudette, get updated.

    CASAA: New study confirms that chemicals in electronic cigarettes pose minimal health risk

    Your FDA study was done in 2009, when a much smaller selection was available and was done on the e-cig types that come prepackaged and are not refillable. Funny that your test you linked earlier that only released the results of one brand (did they only test one brand? Or only release the results of one brand?) and the FDA study. If one brand of ketchup had something bad found in it, would you then claim that it was in all brands of ketchup?

    I have looked at mine after use. After washing off the build up on them, the threads were slightly discolored from heating. The wire running through them looked exactly the same as a new one.

    What evidence do you have that all the atomizers are made in the SAME place? Some articles say most are made in China, while others pointed out that there are currently more than 100 companies making vapor products in the US.

    I agree with some regulation being imposed to ensure quality and ingredients, however, other than the test, which the FDA itself says was limited, and the one you posted, there is no reason for banning them. the American Lung Association warns against them because the effects are unknown, not because they have been proven harmful.

    Also, the whole FDA trying to control flavors I definitely do not agree with. Sure, kids might like the different flavors, but hey, so do some adults.
    Only a fool measures equality by results and not opportunities.

  4. #34
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    Re: Conn. lawmakers consider e-cigarette ban

    Does anyone else keep hearing the beginning of the Black Sabbath song Paranoid when reading some of the posts against vapor products?
    Only a fool measures equality by results and not opportunities.

  5. #35
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    Re: Conn. lawmakers consider e-cigarette ban

    Quote Originally Posted by DVSentinel View Post
    Dudette, get updated.

    CASAA: New study confirms that chemicals in electronic cigarettes pose minimal health risk

    Your FDA study was done in 2009, when a much smaller selection was available and was done on the e-cig types that come prepackaged and are not refillable. Funny that your test you linked earlier that only released the results of one brand (did they only test one brand? Or only release the results of one brand?) and the FDA study. If one brand of ketchup had something bad found in it, would you then claim that it was in all brands of ketchup?

    I have looked at mine after use. After washing off the build up on them, the threads were slightly discolored from heating. The wire running through them looked exactly the same as a new one.

    What evidence do you have that all the atomizers are made in the SAME place? Some articles say most are made in China, while others pointed out that there are currently more than 100 companies making vapor products in the US.

    I agree with some regulation being imposed to ensure quality and ingredients, however, other than the test, which the FDA itself says was limited, and the one you posted, there is no reason for banning them. the American Lung Association warns against them because the effects are unknown, not because they have been proven harmful.

    Also, the whole FDA trying to control flavors I definitely do not agree with. Sure, kids might like the different flavors, but hey, so do some adults.
    And what you linked me to is basically the e-cig industry's lobby. And of course, they're represented this in a pretty dishonest way.

    First of all, this is not a study. It's a review.

    Second, if you go down to methods, you'll see CASAA was intimately involved with putting this "review" together. Gee, color me shocked.

    Third, seeing as how there are no studies on e-cig's overall safety to humans with on-going use, that means nothing in this could possibly address that.

    Fourth, it says right in the abstract that they included un-reviewed reports in their "data." They even go as far as to say they pay special attention to it. In other words, their review is based on stuff that isn't science.

    Fifth, this is out-rightly false even with what very little we do now: some e-cig companies still put diacetyl in their juice. There is no safe threshold for this substance. It is considered one of the most dangerous inhalants one could encounter, as far as lung health. There is no mention of it in this "review."

    Sixth, it leaves out an entire component of e-juice, which is flavoring. Flavoring can contain dozens of different ingredients, many of which are known to be harmful to the lungs... like diacetyl.

    And this is just what I got from a quick scan and search. I'm sure there's more gems in there. Did you even read this, or did you just lap it right up?

    Try again.
    Last edited by SmokeAndMirrors; 09-11-13 at 02:48 AM.

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    Re: Conn. lawmakers consider e-cigarette ban

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    Well, how about you take a look at Cherryvape's website, where they give the ingredients themselves.

    Electronic | E- | Smokeless | Cigarettes | Cigs | Cherry Vape

    Please note the absence of water.

    My NDA expires in 6 months. I have posted here what I can.

    I would also encourage you to look at my e-cigarette break-down here.

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/off-to...post1061921670

    Here's the study that vapor carries metal residue, and other things, which are known to be harmful.

    PLOS ONE: Metal and Silicate Particles Including Nanoparticles Are Present in Electronic Cigarette Cartomizer Fluid and Aerosol

    I have known this for years. The public is only finding this out now.

    You can decide for yourself whether I sound like I know what I'm talking about. You can also look more into the issue.
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  7. #37
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    Re: Conn. lawmakers consider e-cigarette ban

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    Well, how about you take a look at Cherryvape's website, where they give the ingredients themselves.

    Electronic | E- | Smokeless | Cigarettes | Cigs | Cherry Vape

    Please note the absence of water.
    Propylene Glycol, Industrial (PGI) Grade, is a high purity material produced by the high temperature and pressure hydrolysis of propylene oxide with excess water.

    http://msdssearch.dow.com/PublishedL...romPage=GetDoc

    hydrolysis is a chemical process in which a molecule of water is added to a substance

    Hydrolysis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    There's your water. This is for industrial grade propylene glycol, but I can't imagine that pharmaceutical grade PG would eliminate water from its manufacturing process.

    I have known this for years. ...You can also look more into the issue.
    I found the source of water in "e-juice" after only a few minutes of searching.
    The morality of abortion is not a religious belief, any more than the morality of slavery, apartheid, rape, larceny, murder or arson is a religious belief. These are norms of the natural law of mankind and can be legislated even in a completely religionless society.

  8. #38
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    Re: Conn. lawmakers consider e-cigarette ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    Are you kidding me? You have to be joking. If not, let me address your central issue.

    YES, I consider your minor inconvenience based upon an oral fixation which compels you to smoke of less merit than harming your peers during a period of shared communal activity. So if you absolutely MUST smoke, you have the "free choice" you speak of in your original post to get up and depart the communal gathering in order to feed your habit. You also have the choice to sit there and chew gum or do something else which does not affect your peers in their enjoyment of this shared event.

    Your rights end where mine begin; and since we share the right to breathe fresh air without having to suffer the smoke of others, that trumps YOUR right to smoke in our shared presence at a public venue.

    As for the "outside limitations?" You are a voter, you can organize and take action like any other special interest group. If you think there is a problem with "outside limitations" (and there may well be) work to change it. I have no problem with that at all.
    What if I want a smoking establishment? I am a cigar smoker and unless I go to a cigar friendly city I cant own an establishment that caters to cigar smokers. Your rights end at MY property line.
    Semper Fidelis, Semper Liber.
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  9. #39
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    Re: Conn. lawmakers consider e-cigarette ban

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    Dude, you don't get it.

    All these atomizers are made in the SAME place.

    And cartomizers are even worse offenders. They also burn away the polyfill, which you then inhale, in addition to the shoddy, degrading metals in the heating coil. You can confirm this one for yourself. Just open up one of your own cartomizers that you've used.

    The threshold of evidence for people who simply don't want to see is always just one step higher than the threshold of evidence that currently exists. I am not going to trouble myself with that willfully ignorant mindset. I just hope you luck.
    Not all cartomizers or vaporizers are the same. You get what you pay for. My brothers into this big time and knows the in and outs. He tells me that cheap is NOT the way to go.
    Semper Fidelis, Semper Liber.
    I spit at lots of people through my computer screen. Not only does it "teach them a lesson" but it keeps the screen clean and shiny.
    Stolen fair and square from the Capt. Courtesey himself.

  10. #40
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    Re: Conn. lawmakers consider e-cigarette ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    The problem is that the exception then becomes the rule as I'll discuss below. Besides which it is not "one person," since as you already admit it is a MAJORITY of persons many of whom have gotten fed up with smoker's inconsiderate ways.



    There are a lot of "bad ideas" maintained because they are profitable. We've both pointed out many such in other issue threads

    As previously explained, most public establishments (bar, clubs, restaurants) are all about food and drink profit. Smokers buy more liquid refreshment, my dad taught me that when he owed a bar. Therefore, looking at things from a "purely profit motive," every establishment that makes a profit from alcohol and drink sales (soda, bottled water, coffee, etc.) would cater to the needs of the minority knowing that their competition would be doing the exact same thing. After all, if there are few alternative choices even non-smokers will come and endure the hardships imposed by smokers in order to dance, eat, drink, etc.

    No one sees immediate effects of smoking, it takes time for the harms to reveal themselves. Yet purely to support your own habit you would expose pregnant women, children, and other adults to your brand of poison. Beyond that, I can't tell you how many times I've been burned, or my had clothing destroyed by some a-hole smoker back when smoking was legal in clubs and restaurants. Somehow an insincere "sorry" just didn't cut it. Beyond THAT, how many fires have been caused by smokers in various business establishments leading to how many lives lost and burn victims?

    Sorry, your right to smoke poses both health and safety hazards the rest of us don't need to face. For the third and final time, your MINOR inconvenience does not trump the dangers smoking poses to the rest of us. Feel free to smoke, just make sure its in a safe location that does not endanger the rest of us.
    So I take it your rights also trump my rights to cater to whom ever I please as a business owner?
    Semper Fidelis, Semper Liber.
    I spit at lots of people through my computer screen. Not only does it "teach them a lesson" but it keeps the screen clean and shiny.
    Stolen fair and square from the Capt. Courtesey himself.

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