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Thread: Putin's Message to Obama

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    Putin's Message to Obama

    Putin's Eerily Persuasive Message to Barack Obama



    I apologize in advance for the source. It's views are not necessarily my own. The main point here is Putin's message in the video the link contains. IJR simply happens to be the source where I came across it first.

    At first glance, I'll admit that Putin's arguments seem rather convincing. After all, he is a suave and pragmatic man, and he does happen to be possessed of a decidedly shrewd political mind. All of those qualities are on rather clear display above.

    However, given those qualities I have just enumerated, I suppose it should come as no surprise then that he also just so happens to be a skilled liar and brilliant spin artist. I frankly don't think I've ever seen a greater trove of blatant hypocrisy and historical revisionism than what he suggests above.

    For instance, I'm still having a hard time fathoming how he could possibly have the audacity to lecture the United States on any matter pertaining to civilian casualties.

    He certainly didn't care about such things in his invasion of Chechnya during the late 1990s. The conlfict is actually estimated to have killed over a quarter million civilians (most of them ethnic Russians living in Chechnya) over the course of its duration.

    I'd also venture so far as to say that the UN probably didn't declare the region's capital, Gronzy, to be the "most destroyed city on Earth" after being stormed by Russian forces back in 2003 for nothing.

    article-0-0025597200000258-685_634x375.jpg
    grozny.jpg

    We could've launched "Shock and Awe" against Saddam Hussein's Iraq one hundred times over and still not reached anywhere near that level of wanton destructiveness, and any damage we could ever conceivably do in Syria doesn't even begin to compare with it either. No offense to Mr. Putin, but methinks he would be wise to avoid throwing bricks in glass houses.

    Furthermore, while his talk about going through the UN Security Council is all well and good, it also goes completely against his own track record.

    He's absolutely did not "wait" for any kind of UN approval before making the decision to invade Chechnya in 1999, or Georgia in 2008. As a matter of fact, the international community was quite distraught over Russia's behavior during both of those conflicts.

    Likewise, his claims that US intervention in the Middle East hasn't helped anything are off the mark as well. Our air campaign in Libya was quite successful, and managed to play a decisive role in toppling Gaddafi's regime without wracking up the outlandish costs demanded by a full scale invasion and occupation.

    Granted, the Benghazi attack was unfortunate. However, that appears to have been an isolated incident, and it wasn't even one which the majority of Libya's people supported.

    Libyans storm Ansar Al-Shariah compound in backlash after attack on US Consulate

    Aside from this incident, Libya has actually been comparatively stable since the civil war's end.

    The major meccas of civil unrest, violence, and disorder in the Middle East at the present moment are, as a matter of fact, Egypt and Syria; two nations in which the United States has so far made a point of avoiding direct military or political intervention entirely.

    In short, Putin's whole spiel here is basically hypocritical and counter-factual nonsense from beginning to end. It is "do as I say, not as I do" style propaganda specifically meant to appeal to the fear and uncertainty of war-weary Western populations.

    He doesn't give a damn about "harming innocents." He just wants to make sure that he doesn't lose one of his nation's most profitable military buyers.

    How many people do you think will be suckered in by his arguments anyway regardless?
    Last edited by Gathomas88; 09-04-13 at 04:14 AM.

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    Re: Putin's Message to Obama

    Putin needs to shine on the international stage now.

    His country is host to the next olympics that are shrouded in controversy due to the gay laws that were passed last month or so.
    Numerous allegations of political policing and corruption are facing him at home. His tough guy macho act stopped impressing a large number of russians who want something else... someone else in charge.
    He is losing political capital in Europe now that Ukraine is on the brink/has formed a trade agreement with the EU, Moldavia has succeded in securing an independent source of natural gas from Romania through a pipeline that was completed 1-2 months ago and relations between Russia and Belarus have soured due to a few import bans in both countries.
    And the GDP of Russia is said to suffer another anemic growth, barely being a growth.

    So the only thing Putin has going for him, politically, is to check the right answers in the answer box regarding international affairs, namely Syria and Egypt. Criticize the ongoing wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and hope that other issues will calmly go away. He is right about libya. Libya went from a secular dictatorship under Ghadaffi to a islamized country where muslim militia call the shots and there are huge humanitarian problems there still. Though not civil war like problems, but still. Sharia law... unruly troops ,etc.

    Anyway. I don't know if you can blame Putin for Chechnya. It is like if, I don't know, Texas making a separatist movement in the USA and the federal US government would invade Texas to uphold the union. You need to understand that Chechnya is a hub for islamist movements since it's the most radicalized territory in Russia, religiously and otherwise. The Boston bombers were Chechen too. So Chechnya is not a "Russia bad, poor chechens" situation. It's more like a "omg, **** is going down" situation.

    But Georgia, that's another issue entirely.

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    Re: Putin's Message to Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainman05 View Post
    Anyway. I don't know if you can blame Putin for Chechnya. It is like if, I don't know, Texas making a separatist movement in the USA and the federal US government would invade Texas to uphold the union. You need to understand that Chechnya is a hub for islamist movements since it's the most radicalized territory in Russia, religiously and otherwise. The Boston bombers were Chechen too. So Chechnya is not a "Russia bad, poor chechens" situation. It's more like a "omg, **** is going down" situation.
    This is true to a certain degree. However, I would point out that Chechnya's government was largely secular in basis, and that the mere presence of Islamism in a nation doesn't necessarily justify the sheer level of reckless collateral devastation that the Russian military was responsible for in that conflict.

    As I pointed out before, the majority of the civilians killed were actually ethnic, secular Russians living in Chechnya, not Islamic Chechens.

    The simple fact of the matter is that Putin didn't care. Russia got its collective ego badly bruised in Yeltsin's drunken bungling of the first Chechen War, and he thought revenge would make for a good way to boost both his domestic popularity and international prestige.

    In all fairness, it worked brilliantly for him. It's just a shame that a quarter of a million people had to die for it.
    Last edited by Gathomas88; 09-04-13 at 04:35 AM.

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    Re: Putin's Message to Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    This is true to a certain degree. However, I wouldn't point out that Chechnya's government was actually secular, and that the mere presence of Islamism in a nation doesn't necessarily justify the sheer level of reckless collateral devastation the Russian military was responsible for in that conflict.

    As I pointed out before, the majority of the civilians killed were actually ethnic, secular Russians living in Chechnya, not Islamic Chechens.

    The simple fact of the matter is that Putin didn't care. Russia got its collected ego badly bruised by Yeltsin's bungling of the first Chechen War, and he thought revenge would make for a good way to boost both his domestic popularity and international prestige.

    In all fairness, it worked brilliantly for him. It's just a shame that a quarter of a million people had to die for it.
    Fair enough point. But then again, when did Russia ever care for how many people died in a war, either soldiers or civilians? That's an almost non-Russian concept.

    The first Chechen war was because the Chechens messed up badly. The Chechen republic was islamist... heck, if I remember right, the "president" was Emir or Sultan or some medieval arabic notion of rulership. It was also a case of bad timing. They tried to become independent in 1991... 1 year later than Belarus, Ukraine and the Baltic states declared their independence through the right of self-determination. While 1990 was the golden year for such thing, 1991 was 1 year too late.

    And yeah, politically, Putin solidified his status as international tough guy through the war.

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    Re: Putin's Message to Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    -
    Very nicely done.
    I may not agree with your overall point, but you did a spectacular job at presenting your argument.
    I am just simply against intervention, regardless of what Putin has to say.
    You'd make a good adviser to the press secretary or something like that lol.

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    Re: Putin's Message to Obama



    ....As in the case of Syria today, there was no United Nations resolution explicitly authorizing NATO to bomb Serbia. But NATO nations found other ways, including an earlier U.N. Security Council Resolutionpage 105, to legally justify what had to be done. In Syria, the violation of the 1925 Geneva prohibition against the use of chemical weapons is probably sufficient justification. (The fact that Russia used chemical weapons in Afghanistan in the 1980s should be used to undercut Russian objections to strikes against Syria today.)....
    Wesley Clark: Syria vs. Kosovo
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    There were, by most estimates, 500 Nazis in Charlottesville. One of them went homicidal. Not all Nazis are violent extremists. You are trying to rationalize your hatred and it's simply not rational.
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    as I noted, its better that 10 nutjobs get guns than one good person be wrongly disarmed.

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    Re: Putin's Message to Obama

    Notice the imperial attitude of all these world leaders in how they address each other. Putin is no longer addressing the United States, but Obama.

    Obama is not the King of the U.S. Our Congress runs the show. It's not about what Obama wants, it's about what our Congress votes as being ok action to take.

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    Re: Putin's Message to Obama

    Of course he's protecting his nation's interests. That's what executive heads of state do. However, as much as I hate it, I have to agree that military engagement of Syria is a terrible idea. Two reasons:

    1) Launching a naval strike will not make those weapons disappear. They have to be located and properly neutralized according to these agent's chemical compositions. One plan was a newly developed weapon that would simply peirce the containers holding these chemicals with steel rods. That doesn't neutralize chemical weapons. Best case scenario, they remain in liquid form (assuming they are liquid) and only kill a couple dozen kids playing in contaminated zones three or for years later. Worst case, we puncture gaseous chemical agents, creating a cloud of death that kills hundreds of innocent civilians. If any action is to be taken, it's to physically find and dispose of those weapons the right way, by rendering them chemically inert. It just doesn't sound like any well thought out plan has been developed. Dealing with chemical agents is a very sensitive task that requires a lot of planning. Idiotically rushing into an active CBRN environment will get a lot of people killed.

    2) Obama and Congress in all their great wisdom downsized the **** out of the military and cut the budget of our already exhausted forces. If **** gets real and we need to put boots on the ground in the middle of a grade A **** storm, we're ****ed because we don't have another invasion in us. We still desperately need to recover from the war we still have going on right now. I see no reason why we can't just let the UN have this one. Hell, send in NATO if Syria absolutely has to be attacked. The NRF has 25,000 personnel on standby for situations just like this.

    It's ok to sit this one out. We aren't the only military force in the world that is capable of handling dickheads with illegal weapons.
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    Re: Putin's Message to Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Light View Post
    Notice the imperial attitude of all these world leaders in how they address each other. Putin is no longer addressing the United States, but Obama.

    Obama is not the King of the U.S. Our Congress runs the show. It's not about what Obama wants, it's about what our Congress votes as being ok action to take.
    Obama had the authority, (and still does), to attack without Congress.
    He is merely deferring to Congress to seek political cover.
    Might be doubting himself a little too, but mostly just seeking cover.

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