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Thread: Putin's Message to Obama

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    Re: Putin's Message to Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by MMC View Post
    Heya Monte......how ya doing tonight.

    Well truthfully I put this up since Russia will take it to the IAEA next week.....when the House gets back and start talking about Obama's Authroization.

    Also note.....Putin sent 3 more Russian Ships into Club Med. These ones are going for the Syrian Coast. Which they will be there in time for when Congress gets back next week too.

    Hey buddy, I'm good tonight, thanks, you? I've seen that China has a ship headed that way too. This whole thing is just a wee bit different then going into Iraq. You think the White House has their **** together?

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    Re: Putin's Message to Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    And if one were advocating "peace uber alles" you might be correct.

    However, when one is advocating strong mutual alliances with like minded nations and exhibiting a willingness to adhere to the terms of such alliances, then most of your questions are answered.

    So that's how you preceive the USA? A nation exerting an indirect form of government, and of imperial dominance in which we "The Hegemon" (leader state) rules geopolitically subordinate states by the implied means of power, the threat of force, rather than by direct military force?

    Apparently this is beginning to require the ever more frequent application of "direct force" from time to time as well. Our subjects appear to be getting more and more unruly.

    Much of this kind of thought comes from the understandible pride we have in our current status as the strongest military and economic power on earth. (Although our economic might seems to be falling a bit behind our military power.) Yet where have such policies gotten us? We are feared by some, hated by others, admired by some, despised by others...and still everyone has to stop and think "how will the USA respond if we do this or that?" Now I put it to YOU this way...how would YOU feel about any nation whose actions forced you to pause and think "how will the (place nation of choice) respond if we do this or that?"

    In my mind the greatest respect goes to a nation that has the power to act militarily, but always seeks the best diplomatic solution to any problem. Thus reserving military intervention as the last, least acceptible option until all others have been exhausted. This does not mean appeasement because alliances are always respected. It merely means using all the other non-violent but still useful diplomatic tools in any nations arsenal: Mediation, aid, advice, trade sanctions, embargoes, etc.

    That's my position. I don't believe we rule the world, and so I don't believe it is our place to act like we do.
    We rather clearly don't "rule the world" or we wouldn't have deal with all of this "United Nations" nonsense in the first place.

    In any case, I don't actually believe that we "rule" the world. We simply happen to be the most powerful player in it at the moment.

    Unfortunately, this means that we have a rather large amount to lose, and no end of potential rivals looking to supplant our position. I believe we should act accordingly in order to defend our interests.

    Alliances are all well and good and ultimately necessary. Unfortunately, however; if one goes by the historical precedent, they tend to have a less than stellar track record when it comes to accomplishing anything particularly meaningful under peacetime circumstances.

    As a matter of fact, what you described above is more or less exactly what we have now. It honestly seems to accomplish little more than a lot of ineffectual bickering between ourselves and our so called "partners" while our enemies forge ahead doing exactly what they please either way regardless.

    The simple fact of the matter is that the situation now unfolding in Syria could make or break our strategic standing in the region. If we back down, and Assad remains in power, Iran's position will be stronger than ever while our's stands close to a nadir.

    This could effectively hamstring any possible means of slowing down or preventing the completion of Iran's nuclear program we could hope to enact in the future.

    Furthermore, if Iran ever does succeed in going nuclear, we will have effectively lost the Middle East. No US or European leader in their right mind would ever risk going to war with a nuclear armed power, and so our ability to ever again meaningfully impact Middle Eastern affairs will have gone kaput.

    If Turkey and Saudi Arabia follow suit, the situation only gets that much worse, as we now might have a potential nuclear war on our hands.

    Personally, I agree with most of what you're saying. Intervention should be used only sparingly, and preferably in less heavy-handed ways than full on invasions and occupations.

    However, there does come a time when the more "direct" approach is called for, and I doubt that a Libya style air campaign is going to quite "break the bank."

    Even a "Talibanized" Syria might frankly be preferable to one in Russia and Iran's pocket at this point in the game.

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    Re: Putin's Message to Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Hey buddy, I'm good tonight, thanks, you? I've seen that China has a ship headed that way too. This whole thing is just a wee bit different then going into Iraq. You think the White House has their **** together?


    Not at all Monte.....and definitely not with Foreign Policy.

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    Re: Putin's Message to Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    Putin's Eerily Persuasive Message to Barack Obama



    I apologize in advance for the source. It's views are not necessarily my own. The main point here is Putin's message in the video the link contains. IJR simply happens to be the source where I came across it first.

    At first glance, I'll admit that Putin's arguments seem rather convincing. After all, he is a suave and pragmatic man, and he does happen to be possessed of a decidedly shrewd political mind. All of those qualities are on rather clear display above.

    However, given those qualities I have just enumerated, I suppose it should come as no surprise then that he also just so happens to be a skilled liar and brilliant spin artist. I frankly don't think I've ever seen a greater trove of blatant hypocrisy and historical revisionism than what he suggests above.

    For instance, I'm still having a hard time fathoming how he could possibly have the audacity to lecture the United States on any matter pertaining to civilian casualties.

    He certainly didn't care about such things in his invasion of Chechnya during the late 1990s. The conlfict is actually estimated to have killed over a quarter million civilians (most of them ethnic Russians living in Chechnya) over the course of its duration.

    I'd also venture so far as to say that the UN probably didn't declare the region's capital, Gronzy, to be the "most destroyed city on Earth" after being stormed by Russian forces back in 2003 for nothing.

    Attachment 67153079
    Attachment 67153080

    We could've launched "Shock and Awe" against Saddam Hussein's Iraq one hundred times over and still not reached anywhere near that level of wanton destructiveness, and any damage we could ever conceivably do in Syria doesn't even begin to compare with it either. No offense to Mr. Putin, but methinks he would be wise to avoid throwing bricks in glass houses.

    Furthermore, while his talk about going through the UN Security Council is all well and good, it also goes completely against his own track record.

    He's absolutely did not "wait" for any kind of UN approval before making the decision to invade Chechnya in 1999, or Georgia in 2008. As a matter of fact, the international community was quite distraught over Russia's behavior during both of those conflicts.

    Likewise, his claims that US intervention in the Middle East hasn't helped anything are off the mark as well. Our air campaign in Libya was quite successful, and managed to play a decisive role in toppling Gaddafi's regime without wracking up the outlandish costs demanded by a full scale invasion and occupation.

    Granted, the Benghazi attack was unfortunate. However, that appears to have been an isolated incident, and it wasn't even one which the majority of Libya's people supported.

    Libyans storm Ansar Al-Shariah compound in backlash after attack on US Consulate

    Aside from this incident, Libya has actually been comparatively stable since the civil war's end.

    The major meccas of civil unrest, violence, and disorder in the Middle East at the present moment are, as a matter of fact, Egypt and Syria; two nations in which the United States has so far made a point of avoiding direct military or political intervention entirely.

    In short, Putin's whole spiel here is basically hypocritical and counter-factual nonsense from beginning to end. It is "do as I say, not as I do" style propaganda specifically meant to appeal to the fear and uncertainty of war-weary Western populations.

    He doesn't give a damn about "harming innocents." He just wants to make sure that he doesn't lose one of his nation's most profitable military buyers.

    How many people do you think will be suckered in by his arguments anyway regardless?

    What a bunch of pointlessness in your analysis.

    I get it. You hate Russia and you hate Putin.

    How that leads you to conclude then we should go to war against Syria is beyond me.

    The most valid statement he made? That our actions in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya didn't make matters better. The Taliban still controls Afghanistan. Most see no benefit from the mega war in Iraq. Libya is chaos.

    NO, WAIT! Because Putin said it, then YOU conclude that all is a lie. We were TOTALLY successful in Iraq, the Taliban is forever gone in Afghanistan, and the Bengazi attack is all myth that never happened at all and instead it is now the Democratic ideal vacation spot in the region.

    This DIVERSION by the new DEMOCRAT WARHAWKS demanding more wars for which the USA is the policeman of the world going to war against countries that poise no risk to us whatsoever is as your message - to DEMAND Americans declare their loyalty to OBAMA OR PUTIN - and to prove you are loyal to American and Obama you support declaring war on Syria.

    The war talk diverts from all domestic and economic issues. Next, divert discussion of the war to a debate between who's better, the USA President or the Russian President as to whether or not we go to war. There is no rational debate when it comes to Obama. Just diversions.

    We should attack Syria to prove we don't like Putin? That is as absurd as it gets.
    Last edited by joko104; 09-06-13 at 07:45 AM.

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    Re: Putin's Message to Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Light View Post
    Notice the imperial attitude of all these world leaders in how they address each other. Putin is no longer addressing the United States, but Obama.

    Obama is not the King of the U.S. Our Congress runs the show. It's not about what Obama wants, it's about what our Congress votes as being ok action to take.
    Congress doesn't run the show. Obama is head of state and head of government, so his office lets him speak with authority. No doubt that he is constrained by Congress, but Congress does not run the show.

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    Re: Putin's Message to Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    What a bunch of pointlessness in your analysis.

    I get it. You hate Russia and you hate Putin.

    How that leads you to conclude then we should go to war against Syria is beyond me.

    The most valid statement he made? That our actions in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya didn't make matters better. The Taliban still controls Afghanistan. Most see no benefit from the mega war in Iraq. Libya is chaos.

    NO, WAIT! Because Putin said it, then YOU conclude that all is a lie. We were TOTALLY successful in Iraq, the Taliban is forever gone in Afghanistan, and the Bengazi attack is all myth that never happened at all and instead it is now the Democratic ideal vacation spot in the region.

    This DIVERSION by the new DEMOCRAT WARHAWKS demanding more wars for which the USA is the policeman of the world going to war against countries that poise no risk to us whatsoever is as your message - to DEMAND Americans declare their loyalty to OBAMA OR PUTIN - and to prove you are loyal to American and Obama you support declaring war on Syria.

    The war talk diverts from all domestic and economic issues. Next, divert discussion of the war to a debate between who's better, the USA President or the Russian President as to whether or not we go to war. There is no rational debate when it comes to Obama. Just diversions.

    We should attack Syria to prove we don't like Putin? That is as absurd as it gets.
    I think your spot on with that. You see a lot of animosity here toward Russians generally and Putin in Specifically. Who can know for certain where Putins head and heart are, but he's a man and human nature being what it is I suspect he's no different then any American politician, so any finger pointing is..............................anyway, to this specific point, he's right, if it needs to be argued that he's never been right before, his assessment of the way the US is handling Syria has a lot of agreement and support. But hate is blind, so no, there are those that won't recognise that. And then theirs that adolescent Rah Rah America, never does anything wrong (not suggesting that we never get things right either) and so some never hold their own accountable for error or outright sin. Like a partisan with his party.

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    Re: Putin's Message to Obama

    Obama & Putin at the G20 - where strut meets swagger.

  8. #68
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    Re: Putin's Message to Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    How many people do you think will be suckered in by his arguments anyway regardless?
    Good post! Clearly quite a few people have been suckered in already

    I always find it tragically amusing when people treat the US, Israel, UK, France, etc. as sinister imperialists but don't so much as question whatever Russia says or does. Putin has become a hero to both the pacifists on the Left and the isolationists on the Right, even though pretty much everything he does is in violation of both philosophies.

    Take the chemical attack in Syria. US, French, and Israeli intelligence all seem to point to the government as having carried out these attacks - and sure, you can bring up our intelligence failure prior to the Iraq War, but (according to Israeli members on the board) Israeli intelligence hasn't failed since 1973, and that's when they underestimated a security threat. That doesn't matter to these people. Even suggesting that Assad used the chems is to wish to extend corporatist and Zionist domination across the Middle East at the expense of its free people. In order to provide evidence for their agenda, they present clearly biased Russian sources, including Putin (as well as conspiracy blogs) and don't even bother to consider the fact that Putin has an agenda that he wishes to promote in Syria.

    The Russophiles' hypocrisy is abysmal. Russia and China get to condemn the US for promoting our interests in Syria, although they've been doing the same for over a year. They get to condemn us over civilian casualties, even though they've been supporting Assad, who has the worst record (IIRC) of civilian casualties. Russia and China get to insinuate that we're imperialists seeking to oppressively dominate the rest of the world and brutally destroy anyone who stands in our way, although both countries have already attempted to do this: Russia waging indiscriminate warfare against Chechnya and Georgia, and China repressing dissent in Tibet and Xinjiang, as well as engaging in war with India over disputed territory.

    I'm not saying Putin is necessarily wrong (although he is in this instance). I'm just saying that everything he says should be taken with grain of salt, because he also has an agenda he wishes to promote in Syria and is no less willing to lie and deceive in regards to the conflict than we are.
    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Hah. If someone put me in their sig, I'd never know. I have sigs off.

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    Re: Putin's Message to Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by MadLib View Post
    Good post! Clearly quite a few people have been suckered in already

    I always find it tragically amusing when people treat the US, Israel, UK, France, etc. as sinister imperialists but don't so much as question whatever Russia says or does. Putin has become a hero to both the pacifists on the Left and the isolationists on the Right, even though pretty much everything he does is in violation of both philosophies.

    Take the chemical attack in Syria. US, French, and Israeli intelligence all seem to point to the government as having carried out these attacks - and sure, you can bring up our intelligence failure prior to the Iraq War, but (according to Israeli members on the board) Israeli intelligence hasn't failed since 1973, and that's when they underestimated a security threat. That doesn't matter to these people. Even suggesting that Assad used the chems is to wish to extend corporatist and Zionist domination across the Middle East at the expense of its free people. In order to provide evidence for their agenda, they present clearly biased Russian sources, including Putin (as well as conspiracy blogs) and don't even bother to consider the fact that Putin has an agenda that he wishes to promote in Syria.

    The Russophiles' hypocrisy is abysmal. Russia and China get to condemn the US for promoting our interests in Syria, although they've been doing the same for over a year. They get to condemn us over civilian casualties, even though they've been supporting Assad, who has the worst record (IIRC) of civilian casualties. Russia and China get to insinuate that we're imperialists seeking to oppressively dominate the rest of the world and brutally destroy anyone who stands in our way, although both countries have already attempted to do this: Russia waging indiscriminate warfare against Chechnya and Georgia, and China repressing dissent in Tibet and Xinjiang, as well as engaging in war with India over disputed territory.

    I'm not saying Putin is necessarily wrong (although he is in this instance). I'm just saying that everything he says should be taken with grain of salt, because he also has an agenda he wishes to promote in Syria and is no less willing to lie and deceive in regards to the conflict than we are.

    In other words no one can be trusted.

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    Re: Putin's Message to Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by bubbabgone View Post
    Obama & Putin at the G20 - where strut meets swagger.




    .....

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